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  #136  
Old 2009-04-06, 13:25
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Actually, I do think nothing is better than something, sometimes. I'd rather enjoy silence than listen to a really shitty cover of my favourite song. And I think if Asceai doesn't feel that his translations were doing justice to the eloquence of the original, we should really respect that.
I would absolutely *love* to play G-Senjou no Maou, but I would rather wait for a faithful adaptation than play through a mediocre version now.
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  #137  
Old 2009-04-06, 17:16
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dear unreg:
it is easy to say that "even so-and-so made mistakes in translation, therefore mistakes are nothing". well, it would feel like nothing if you didnt translate it yourself. just who in the world would happily put up their works which they feel was not done particularly well about?
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  #138  
Old 2009-04-15, 01:03
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@Apples: I never said release his translations as a playable version, i said release them for review/critique, which is why your reference/example of your favourite song does not apply.
To be more specific, it would be analagous to someone remixing/etc one of your favourite songs, stopping part way, and giving it up for those who are interested in what is already done, at which point they have the option of either totally discarding what has already been done if they don't like it, and starting from scratch, or using what they like/agree with and saving some time and not wasting already invested effort.

@other unreg: no, my point wasn't "mistakes are always made, therefore they are nothing" infact i said nothing of the sort, i was merely saying that a fear of failure (in this case, translation errors) does not mark for a non-release, that is why there are translation checkers, proof readers, and patch updates for adjustment, if there is a mistake, it can be corrected, this expecially applies seeing as this is not or in any way a final release of the translation, merely a file of text to be posted on a wiki.

and may i reiterate the fact that i'm not saying "Release what you've made, give it 100% guarantee" im saying "release what you've made, for review by others and perhaps save time"
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  #139  
Old 2009-04-15, 03:21
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i am the unreg you were talking to.

i was actually talking about the part that since he doesnt want to to release it, you shouldnt force him to. it is his time he spent, and we didnt ever pay his electricity bills before. that being said, he doesnt owe the 'community' anything. maybe there was some hype and disappointment for those who caught wind of it, but who are we to insist that he must "do this and that" when we have done nothing towards the project?

embarrassing to say but i have ever tried to translate small portions of text J>E. my attempt turned out to be a horrifying experience. when i knew that there are bits of meanings i can never get across the translation barrier for a one to one sentence translation, i erased the document myself. which i am not saying that he might necessarily have faced the same problems i got due to my bad usage of languages. he might have felt that it wasnt enough, not for his expectations of himself, thus he doesnt want to release it. what good will that text document sitting in his pc do to him, so much that he doesnt want to release it, you have to ask yourself. why would he want to release it for review/critique, if he ever felt uncomfortable about it?

though, of course i would want him to put up the translations he has already done on wikis or where ever if only for a very slightly better chance of anyone ever finish translating the game. the truth is i just cannot bring myself to demand anything when i am only a lurker.

*Note that the third para contains some heavy assumptions, please treat it only as a possible case scenario instead of truth ... lalalala
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  #140  
Old 2009-04-15, 16:38
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Wow, this is a great lesson for potential translators to learn. Don't attempt a challenging translation project, because if you gracefully bow out everyone will get indignant and there will be huge drama and no one will ever stop bugging you.
*thumbs up*
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  #141  
Old 2009-04-15, 16:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apples View Post
Wow, this is a great lesson for potential translators to learn. Don't attempt a challenging translation project, because if you gracefully bow out everyone will get indignant and there will be huge drama and no one will ever stop bugging you.
*thumbs up*
What do you expect? It's a high profile game and /jp/ exists.

I'm not saying that the harassment is okay or that it's going to accomplish anything, but don't be naive.
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  #142  
Old 2009-04-16, 20:04
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@Apples: I don't mean to be rude to Asceai, but in all objectiveness, truth, and blunt force statements, what happened here was in no way a "graceful bow out", X months of silence and round about responses and finally a "sorry, i quit, really sorry, [insert reasoning here]" is bound to bring about frustration and anger. No, it's extremely unreasonable to expect everyone to be happy, dandy, and no-strings-attached forgiving. Not to say it's fair to harrass Asceai, but that hasn't been the case in my honest opinion, there have been no personal attacks, and no particularly rude remarks.

and TBH, i wouldn't consider this a huge drama, all i did was request (note: request, i never said "DO IT NOW, DO IT DO IT DO IT") along with my reasoning as to why he should post the work he has done.

If Asceai were to post something like "all your reasoning considered, blah blah, but no, i won't be uploading" then that's that (assuming he gives a fair response). This is a request that he is at liberty to reject or accept within reason, unfortunately he has a fondness for silence and delayed responses, which is essentially one of the causes of this problem in the first place.

@other Unreg: once again, i'm requesting, not "forcing him to".
it's nigh impossible to force people to do stuff over the internet, not without some questionable methods, none of which are in employ here.
also: as i said before, lack of confidence generally is a weak excuse for a non-release, if not an unacceptable excuse.

and may i point out that him posting these translations ->are of no detriment to others<-? sure one skilled in moonrune may scoff slightly at bad translations, but that's the worst of it, at best, X amount of time is saved because particular chunks are already translated, and only need paraphrasing.

if Asceai uploading these files was going to kill some random child somewhere on the earth, then by all means, delete the files, bury your computer, but that isn't the case here, uploading the files produces no inherent victim apart from perhaps Asceai's translation confidence and there is a chance of positive effect.

so that's how i see it, i really don't know what the issue is here.
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  #143  
Old 2009-04-16, 20:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
If Asceai were to post something like "all your reasoning considered, blah blah, but no, i won't be uploading" then that's that (assuming he gives a fair response).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asceai View Post
I haven't put anything up simply because I'm not happy with the translation... someone wanting to start their own project really would be better off retranslating the first chapter. The thing is that the translation style has far more impact on the quality of the text than I originally thought it would.

I went into the project thinking that, well, it was just a matter of reading the text in Japanese and rewriting it in English.

I found out that it doesn't work like that.

At the time I really did plan on putting translated bits up as I was finished with them (not necessarily on a wiki, but you get the idea). Why did this collapse? Because I never finished with any translated scripts. Out of the 1mb or so of text I ended up translating, I'm not happy with any of the scripts. 'Editing' failed to fix this. I could edit a script over and over again, and still not be happy with it. I wasn't being a perfectionist / grammar/prose nazi / whatever either - my translations were bad, and I couldn't make them better, even for lines as simple as:
裏の道を歩けば総和連合に当たり、表の道を行けば山王に当たるといわれるほどに、影響力は大きい。
I know what it's saying. I know exactly what it means. But I don't know how to write it in English without losing information. If my translation loses a bit of detail here, a bit of detail there, eventually the finished result will be worse than nothing. And I've asked for help, for lines like that, but I can't keep doing that every time I come to something I don't know how to translate, otherwise someone else might as well do it.

Being able to read Japanese and being able to translate Japanese are far too different.

My scripts are useless for anyone that wanted to translate G-Senjou no Maou themselves, because such a person would adopt their own translation style, which would result in a vastly different result, and they wouldn't be able to use my scripts anyway. If I manage to get over this annoying block that is preventing me from translating the scripts, I'll fix/rewrite the existing scripts, continue with my current style and it won't matter anyway.


And yes, while I actually do feel I owe the community something (for tying up this project for about 8 months, discouraging others from translating it), I can't offer it. Sorry. If someone else wants to translate it my offer to provide tech support still stands..

Quote:
so that's how i see it, i really don't know what the issue is here.
He has said he doesn't want to post it. You (and the other unreg before you) are "requesting" that he post it. The only issue here is what you're raising. Other than that, no issues.

While this doesn't exactly classify as heavy handed drama or whatever, it's getting real old real fast. So Asceai just come out and say NO already, clearly and definitively, because apparently some people can't take a hint.
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  #144  
Old 2009-04-17, 06:42
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@other Unreg: once again, i'm requesting, not "forcing him to".
it's nigh impossible to force people to do stuff over the internet, not without some questionable methods, none of which are in employ here.
also: as i said before, lack of confidence generally is a weak excuse for a non-release, if not an unacceptable excuse.
did you ever read the previous posts? too many requests filed. and your addition to the heap of requests written in this a way:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered
i really don't understand why some people feel that nothing is better than something, and that if the majority cannot enjoy it, it should not exist.

also, if you do feel as if you owe the community something, consider the uploading a debt paid.
sounded brutal. well, that how i read it anyway. so no problems there. if you are not imposing your will over him then i'm fine, for nobody deserves that from a lurker
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  #145  
Old 2009-04-17, 08:06
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Have you ever seen a show where someone was writing a letter and thought it wasn't good enough for the recipient to read it so they crumpled it up and threw it away? That really happens sometimes.

And so far I don't see any signs that he discouraged any other potential translators from doing it, as no one's come up in the few months since he made his announcement.
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  #146  
Old 2009-04-17, 10:06
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OH NOES, YET ANOTHER DRAMA ON GEMOT, lolz

No, really, I miss translation of GSNM, but it doesnt bother me anymore
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  #147  
Old 2009-04-17, 12:40
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I'm with the view that nothing can be better than something. If Asceai feels that his translations aren't doing justice to a work he holds in high regard, then I for one encourage him to stick to his decision to not release them. Hell, that was why I pulled three of my older translations; the mistakes I discovered were so bad that I felt it was a sign of disrespect to the original creators and games to leave them up like that for the public to read and, ultimately, misinterpret. I highly doubt Asceai's translations contained anything even close to the level of mistakes in those horrid releases I put out a couple years ago, but the basic concept of respect still stands.
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  #148  
Old 2009-04-19, 22:35
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I am disappointed. Chances are, I will learn Japanese before this is fan-translated. Oh well. /o/
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  #149  
Old 2009-04-20, 01:06
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Too many unregistered peoples, so this is to the general mass:

he said "If I manage to get over this annoying block that is preventing me from translating the scripts"

that's far from a definitive "no", and it's also far from a "hint" towards "no"
if anything, it's statement of a possible return to translating, which although is almost certaintly not going to happen, is still non-commital to a definite answer.
yes, i would like a solid, and well reasoned answer/response (well reasoned involves addressing what has been said), i'm sure some other lurkers would like it too, but i'd also imagine a quick end to all and any thoughts regarding this with a simple "no".

also, Asceai himself said "i do feel like i owe the community something" and i response was "well if that is the case"
there is no harshness there.

@ starchan: i would agree with your view, if your releases had been a final/finished release, and even if your transletions were a final/finished release, the material here is not. I don't see "misinterpretation" as an issue for rough copies under review, most people will realise that the information/content in rough copies are to be taken with a hefty grain of salt. I think that you will agree, that most if not all final/finished releases have an implied guarantee of quality and truth, while rough drafts or WIP, as a matter of course, do not carry these expectations, and at the same time, it does not carry the same implications in the case of a mistake.
Proof readers exist for a reason.
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  #150  
Old 2009-04-20, 05:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
that's far from a definitive "no", and it's also far from a "hint" towards "no"
if anything, it's statement of a possible return to translating, which although is almost certaintly not going to happen, is still non-commital to a definite answer.
yes, i would like a solid, and well reasoned answer/response (well reasoned involves addressing what has been said), i'm sure some other lurkers would like it too, but i'd also imagine a quick end to all and any thoughts regarding this with a simple "no".
Well, he's working on another game now, so the answer remains "don't hold your breath".
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