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General Discussion Theres a Clannad of AIR-headed Kanon fodder being shot by the Little Busters After Tomoyo on a Planet-arian.

Poll: I feel like Im regularly seeking interesting features you just read about a number of subjects, but
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I feel like Im regularly seeking interesting features you just read about a number of subjects, but

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  #46  
Old 2011-01-16, 21:19
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Oi Oi.....

Please don't make it a very big issue.....

Quote:
LSF has been preetily declining over last months, in spite that the Ren'Py gets more and more powerful. That's because, even there's been a bunch of new people coming in, they're mostly fangirls/fanboys and casuals that just had this dream of "making a game" and want to make it ASAP. They don't now anything about game developement, art and storytelling, but they usually make their games because Ren'Py is simple enough that even the most lazy and useless person in the world could take their 15 mins and make a shitty mash-up using it; it's not like other DEV kits, which aren't made towards such audience and you usually need weeks digging through various tutorials, examples and guidebooks just to make anything working. That's why they make those games - shitty, boring fan works; they are like that because what they do is copying japanese visual novels, not creating their own ones, and let's be honest - most of them aren't game developers at all, and will NEVER be.
well its understandable......they just want there ideas come fruition.....
all they need is a little guidance when come to that field......
thats how Some Japanese Visual Novel Developers made huge success....
they need someone will evaluate there storyline, art, music, and etc first before it gonna go for the public more likely someone to judge. if the just release it carelessly without evaluation then the public while just ignore it or talk sh** to it......beginners should go to this process...

Well in my case I don't care if story,art are bad or good as long its a Visual novel I can't ignore it....I'll judge it when I finish playing it.

@Strum:
Well I can't argue with you since everyone has there own sense of taste....

@YiuKorochko:
Me & my cousin really appreciate your Visual Novel........
It is good and enjoyed it.....and congratulations that you'll get a mini series...
My cousin and I will really be happy to see it...

@VDZ:
WEW O_O AMAZING ART!......
for the artist score
Score: 10/10
Very well detailed and the coloring is fantastic.....
Can you give me information where I can contact him or who is he?
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  #47  
Old 2011-01-17, 02:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fallen_god View Post
Can you give me information where I can contact him or who is he?
It's just an image from danbooru. You can reach the artist through his pixiv if you know Japanese. There's a nice little tool called iqdb that allows you to find out who's the creator of many pieces of fanart (iqdb finds them on the boorus, and the boorus generally list the name of the artist).
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  #48  
Old 2011-01-17, 03:30
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If you wanna make some good dojin game all alone, you need to be niwatori or mushiro. Otherwise, it'll suck. Though, just by being OELVN, it fails by default.
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  #49  
Old 2011-01-17, 19:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IceD View Post
+0+
You say you've spent nearly 4 years in developement (with a team), yet I still can't seem to find anything that would prove your hard work, and as an interested person, it feels like I've been cheated through all that time.

+1+
Of course, you may have your reason for not showing anything, but then there wouldn't be also a reason in starting the whole discussion.

+2+
Let's be honest, as a consumer I wouldn't give a s**t about how long did you and your team worked on the project, nor who you are. I just want to see some progress.

+3+
Don't say you're working on a project. Just work on it.

+4+
Don't look for praise on the net, just because you're doing a vn, because you won't get it in that way and setting up a site already means you want to create a community and have some contact with other people.

+5+
Ren'Py is not SIMPLE, it was designed to be simple to appeal to bigger masses of people, but this also caused the decrease in overall quality of such works, because not everyone on this world is born to become a good game developer (if at all), and ironically Ren'Py overcomes this by giving a simple, basic template that's ready to work right from the start.

+6+
You say it's all in the hands of users. Of course it is, but who will exactly have the courage to tell them straight, that their works are crap...?.

+7+
You're a begginer? Then learn how to do it properly first, before you start making a game. You have to learn that yourself, and it will take some time.

+8+
If you want to do something, just od it. By that time, I learned a lot of things. Now I'm writing a full-blown script for my first official project and If everything goes out well, it will be finished this summer.

+9+
At least now, because I'm able to work alone on everything, I can take my time. And I'm also dedicated to finish this. In two-three years you'll propably see the results, maybe even faster; who knows that. And then you'll be able to judge everything yourselves, because all I can say, that no matter who you are - a beggining western ammateur, or a proffesional japanese game developer - everything can be done with quality, you just have to want to do it that way. You can learn to do some things, and if you don't have the cash, just go and find a job, earn and invest in your better future as a developer... if that's what you want to do, because you love that from the bottom of your heart.
Thanks for your feedback, I've marked several points in your reply which I'd like to explain.
+0+
To clarify, I had actually been writing a totally different script and one of the characters I developed started to manifest in his own story at the back of my head. Yes, the main idea for Sakkaku ni Dasu has been worked on for the last four years, but it's been tightened up from what was once a very loose, shitty VN idea. I've studied a few other highly rated VNs, and have even interviewed friends on what they'd like to see in a VN (actual VN players, not just friends in general).
The rest of this point continues in +1+.

+1+
Yes, I do have reasons for keeping such a tight grip on the actual story. I have a great fear of the project being stolen, copied, and made by someone else when this is my idea, which I wish to create.

+2+
Progress at the moment is dreadfully slow due to my college schedule. I am hoping that my summer vacation events will be thin enough to fill in a load of work. I actually have a Concept Art page online, but it's not listed in the navigation due to lack of material. I want at least the main character and his parents basic artwork done.

+3+
This is pretty much what I'm doing, but since my BG artist isn't helping, I've been spreading work around my local J-fan group to see if I can get others involved. The people I have booked for voice acting? Well they're pretty much waiting for me to have the rest of it done so that they can see what kind of emotions they should portray at the appropriate times. They're up for it and they know that it will take some few years if I'm doing absolutely everything myself.

+4+
I look for no such praise, but I do look to change people's opinions of OELVNs (which this game is half and half).

+5+
I agree entirely. The only reason why I even looked at the template is because this is the first time I've used the Ren'Py engine. I have worked in other methods which would be laughed at today but were a good idea in the past but once the core structure is learned (something which the template will try to veer you away from as a beginner) the story and art come into play, which is why a lot of games have failed. Core code is there, art isn't important, then they do a half-assed job on the art and flog the story.

+6+
Well, of course that's up to the community. But there's so much crap out there that either they'll get a few friends to play and say it's awesome or they'll get no views and no feedback, essentially voiding the whole project.

+7+
I've written a short seven book series which I've never felt right publishing; it's archived on an old 40GB HDD somewhere...I've practiced storyboarding and writing most of my life without realizing it, and I'm studying all this academically at this point. I also read a lot of books. Some of which are short 150 pagers, but these I only read if it's a series of 25 or more. Other books I've read go beyond a few thousand pages. Through all this, I've become more than confident while creating Sakkaku ni Dasu.

+8+
Despite the fact that I'm not confident enough to reveal my past works, I'm pretty much in the same position as you. Note, I'm not saying I'm on the same level as you, and I don't want you to get that impression. Continues in point +9+.

+9+
Agreed. Entirely. I'm really taking my time with this, and have developed a good sense of self-judgment so I can honestly say to myself a month after writing Chapter 2 "Hey wait there's a loophole/unclear part there." and adjust the game such (which is really what I've been doing the past four years). I actually have 2 jobs and a student grant, but I have only just been able to afford my new desktop. My laptop was burning out, literally. A strong smell of plastic coming from the fan exhaust...
When I can afford the RetasPro software, I will buy it. But if I complete everything else and them some by that time, I'll be forces to use action shots and sfx rather than animated clips.

Honestly, I really like the title and it suites the story perfectly, and I didn't want to spend forever on a game which in the end, some tiny 4 minute crap with a similar/same name appears. I really wanted to just bag the name and get others potentially interested in getting involved, though I'd rather these be people I've met.

I'm still not in a "team" yet either...once members are added, they'll be added to the webpage but until then...this is a one-man + voice actors project.

Sidenote, this was supposed to be a book or film script, but fortunately I was able to find a method of portrayal which best suites my skills despite my lack of free time.

I appreciate the advice and outlook on the project. If I can figure out a way to open up a summary of the plot without totally ruining the point of even playing the game then I'll have it up on it's own page in the main site. That's really the only reason why there's no plot summary or anything of the sort: I'm so into the project I can determine what's safe to reveal and what isn't.

</stop_scrolling.rant_over>
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  #50  
Old 2011-01-17, 19:32
YiuKorochko YiuKorochko is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fallen_god View Post
@YiuKorochko:
Me & my cousin really appreciate your Visual Novel........
It is good and enjoyed it.....and congratulations that you'll get a mini series...
My cousin and I will really be happy to see it...
Thank you for your support. I hope that once it's finished and online I'll continue to get similar feedback, but for now, they're only hopes.

As for the mini series, it's only a speculation for now. A potential area of thought, but not something I'm aiming for. I merely meant to suggest that if my VN were decent enough and I get up and close with some special contacts I might get a mention or even a pilot.
I just have to keep out of mind what other VNs are doing and focus on my story which I've tried so hard to solidify. I may study a VN in order to learn how the code may be layed out at one point or another, but I'm pretty much passed that stage. If it's original, strong, and sellable, I'm sure some company will go for it. Hell, bring it on AT-X.
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  #51  
Old 2011-01-18, 08:09
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I think the point of many posts is that the consumer expects high quality work for their purchase, which is very understandable. While the devs do work very hard on their games, the point is that (for commercial games), it becomes a product and therefore competes for the consumer's dollar. When this happens, that game will be compared to other products the consumer can buy, and, at that point, it doesn't matter to the consumer (generally) that it's an indie game.
I once saw a developer complain that their game was compared to Kingdom Hearts. You can buy Kingdom Hearts II for under $15, which was the dev's price for their game. I think a mistake that some devs make is that they think there is no comparison. Yes, they worked very hard, but in the real world, very few care how hard you worked, they're only interested in the end product. Also, I think some may not have clear goals as to why they're making/selling their game, or have a poor business model.
Also, consumers are not reviewers. They rarely rate or critique what they've bought beyond "good" or "bad". If a dev wants marketing research to improve their games, they'll have to do it themselves, and ask good questions to get helpful answers.
VNs as a whole are not popular in the USA/Canada. If devs want to really create this industry, they're going to have to change the image of VNs to cater to a more mainstream consumer (like Avatar and Ben 10 have done with "American Anime"), or find a niche market. I think some devs have accomplished that and are branding themselves well for their target markets, though I believe those markets to not be the average Japanese VN consumer, like myself.
I buy many of the "OELVN" commercial releases, and the only one that particularly caught my attention was Vera Blanc. I've either not finished, or forced myself through the others, usually because of poor writing, not visuals. I continue to purchase them though, because I personally support independent efforts, even outside the VN scene, but I know that is far from the norm. I think there is potential in OELVN, but it has a long way to go, and will only come about if the community really works together to increase the market and popularity of visual novels.
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  #52  
Old 2011-01-20, 12:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VDZ View Post
THIS.

The only good thing about this thread.

Delicious Kyonko.
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Kunisaki Yukito is a flooging pervert. He makes a mother finger her daughter to get off his sick kicks, have two sisters paizuri his cock while slobbering all over it, and he raped another in the rain. From Behind. I bet he assreamed the ghostly loli too.
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  #53  
Old 2011-01-24, 09:15
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The origin point of every creative movement is littered with mediocrity. I think it's easy to forget that because we usually think of forms that have existed for a long time--painting, sculpture, architecture, the epic--forms that have existed long enough for history to do the curating for us naturally by wiping all but the most enduring things about their early stages from our memory. So we're left with great paintings and sculptures people have cared to preserve, buildings capable of withstanding time and the elements, and stories people keep retelling.

And if we should happen to see something mediocre from that time of antiquity? Ah, the length of our hindsight lets us see how it was an instrumental step in what came after. It's far easier to appreciate the value of fundamentals and experimentation when we see what was learned from it over the course of centuries.

Visual novels, and video games in general, are a comparatively very young medium. Even if you take video game history back to its earliest origin point, it's something everyone here is either old enough to remember or has an immediate relative old enough to remember, and VNs are essentially a subset of graphic adventure game, which would go back only as far as 1980 or so. You can argue that the constituent parts of a visual novel belong to older media--visual arts, prose, music, acting--but let's be honest here, there are two reasons that's irrelevant.

1. Most people with the drive and skill to excel in any one of those fields is going to be devoting themselves to its established form, where they know success is more likely.

2. Every synthesized medium has to undergo its own evolution where the people working in it figure out how to make its fundamental parts link up smoothly. You can have brilliant writing, excellent art, moving music and perfect acting and if they're not made with every other part under consideration, they will be totally mismatched and jarring as a whole.

I'm not going to spare any work the rod just because of this. In fact, it would be counterproductive, as the way we move the medium out of its infancy is to have serious critical discussions that force people to move forward. I'm mortified by what passes for 'good writing' in the VN scene. I cringe at nearly every soundtrack. I'm saddened that the two options for art seem to be 'bad' or 'moeblob'. In spite of all of this, though, I'm excited to be on the ground floor of the medium because I know that when the breakthrough happens, it will be so sweet.
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  #54  
Old 2011-01-24, 10:43
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The problem wasn't with VNs in general, we were talking about OELVNs. VN standards have already been set, it's just that OELVN producers usually don't even try to seriously make something good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
I'm mortified by what passes for 'good writing' in the VN scene.
'Good writing' is a matter of taste. You're probably using literature standards when judging writing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of the Rings
There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.
This is what passes for good writing among novel fans. However, this is the kind of writing that makes me cringe. Elaborate sentences and lots of words, yet it barely says anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clannad
A world, surface of white.
........
Snow...
Yes, snow.
Continuing to fall down even now, it covers my body in white.
Ahhh...
What am I doing in such a world...?
Since when have I been alone in this place...?
........
Buried in snow... was my hand.
That hand, it was holding something.
I pull it up.
A hand of pure white.
It was a girl`s hand.
Ahhh... that`s right...
I was not alone.
I brushed off the snow covering her face.
Her figure which slept quietly, surfaced.
That`s right...
We were always together...
In this world.
In this sad, lonely world.
This is what I consider good writing. Yes, the sentences are short and simple. No elaborate poetry here. But in the end, isn't writing just the art of telling a story through text? This quote pulls me into the story much better than the elaborate nonsense people call good novel writing. If I want elaborate sentences, I'll just read poetry instead. When I'm reading a story of any kind, I want it to convey the story, to make me experience the world it's telling about, to make me feel what the protagonist feels, without interrupting the experience with walls of text that could as well have been written as a couple words.
Different people like different ways of writing. If you dislike what is considered 'good writing' in visual novels, then that's not because the writers are terrible; instead it just means that the visual novel style of writing isn't for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
I cringe at nearly every soundtrack.
And that's just going a bit too far. Many VNs have great soundtracks, especially the translated ones. Can you tell me which soundtracks exactly make you cringe and why?
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  #55  
Old 2011-01-24, 11:22
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If you want good VN writing, here you go. Excerpt from Comyu:

Spoiler


Granted, Hino's writing isn't for everyone, but I love it.
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  #56  
Old 2011-01-24, 11:55
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Originally Posted by VDZ View Post
The problem wasn't with VNs in general, we were talking about OELVNs. VN standards have already been set, it's just that OELVN producers usually don't even try to seriously make something good.
I'd disagree and firmly assert that the medium as a whole is failing its potential. That any comparison exists between the Japanese offerings and the English offerings is a matter of commercial power, but the fact that Japanese studios can get away with some of the output that they do just makes the overall problems more apparent.

Quote:
'Good writing' is a matter of taste. You're probably using literature standards when judging writing.
I also disagree here. Let your taste be your taste, but to conflate 'quality' with 'taste' is dishonest. Every art form has a function, and in the case of writing, it's communication. If the idea gets across without straining you, it is functional. Going beyond that into 'good' territory requires precision. Does the word choice and pacing lend to or detract from the tone? Is the narrative voice consistent? Is characterization naturally emergent? The reason those literary standards exist is because writing does have a job to do. Everyone has a different way of trying to achieve these goals, but that doesn't mean they always achieve them.

Or do you genuinely believe that everything that falls within the purview of your taste is good? Don't mistake me here, no one is saying that your taste or your opinion is worth less if it doesn't adhere to objective standards: I like plenty of things that are not, strictly speaking, 'good' in their particular medium, just because they tickle my fancy. But I can still step back and break down what could be better.

Quote:
This is what passes for good writing among novel fans. However, this is the kind of writing that makes me cringe. Elaborate sentences and lots of words, yet it barely says anything.
Actually, of the people who like Lord of the Rings, let alone the general novel-reading public, there are only small groups that consider the quality of the prose to be the strength of the series. Humorously, though, you have selected a very strong passage in terms of writing. You may not like some of the archaic word choices, in which case the Eddaic quality of the whole series will be offputting to you, but very nearly every word in that sentence is precisely placed to convey a very specific message. If you think it's overburdened, I'd be very interested to see how you'd suggest parsing it down without losing any meaning.

Quote:
This is what I consider good writing. Yes, the sentences are short and simple. No elaborate poetry here. But in the end, isn't writing just the art of telling a story through text? This quote pulls me into the story much better than the elaborate nonsense people call good novel writing. If I want elaborate sentences, I'll just read poetry instead.
Meaning no offense, but you seem to be taking a rather defensive tack here. Additionally, you seem to have pretty narrow preconceptions about novels and poetry. Neither of these are confined to singular styles, as you'd seem to suggest. Meanwhile, though, there are some consistent problems that tend to crop up in most visual novels. Not all, but most.

One of the most pervasive actually appears, ironically, in the segment you cited and admired as being concise: too much prose for too little relevant material.

Quote:
When I'm reading a story of any kind, I want it to convey the story, to make me experience the world it's telling about, to make me feel what the protagonist feels, without interrupting the experience with walls of text that could as well have been written as a couple words.
And yet that segment you so admire has repetition of tone-setting elements that are entirely redundant and a few poor choices that inflate the word count.

Quote:
Different people like different ways of writing. If you dislike what is considered 'good writing' in visual novels, then that's not because the writers are terrible; instead it just means that the visual novel style of writing isn't for you.
This is the main idea I take issue with. Why is there a 'visual novel style'? 'Style' in its most literal sense, should be unique. That's really how you know you've 'arrived' in a medium, when a practitioner can have a signature style that makes people say, "Ah, that must be So and So!" As far as the writing in Visual Novels go, it's so often bogged down in word-vomit that it's hard to distinguish one from any other.

For the record, no other medium has a universal 'style', and no one who's serious about seeing VNs grow should be content for them to have one either. Mediocrity will often resemble mediocrity, but excellence is divergent and unusual.

Quote:
And that's just going a bit too far. Many VNs have great soundtracks, especially the translated ones. Can you tell me which soundtracks exactly make you cringe and why?
It'd be easier to just list the few that I like: there are some tracks from F/SN I like, a few from Clannad that I like, and a few from Katawa Shoujo that I like. As with my complaints about the writing, what distresses me is that most of the music in VNs is quite generic. I generally encounter three options: guitar-pop ripped from the late 80s/early 90s, sterile piano or violin solos, or orchestral bombast. Where is the blues, ska, hip-hop, metal, rockabilly, folk, punk, musique concrete, jazz?

It's not that I don't understand WHY the music tends towards generic. The more unique/specific music gets, the harder it becomes to make it consistent with the events happening in the VN. But still, I think if we're going to wonder why VN producers aren't giving us the moon, we may as well try asking for it.
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  #57  
Old 2011-01-24, 12:13
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I say that VDZ's taste is crappy!
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  #58  
Old 2011-01-24, 13:14
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VNs vs real novels let's go!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Good ero writing, fucking a loli in a real novel
One night, she managed to deceive the vicious vigilance of her family. In a nervous and slender-leaved mimosa grove at the back of their villa we found a perch on the ruins of a low stone wall. Through the darkness and the tender trees we could see the arabesques of lighted windows which, touched up by the colored inks of sensitive memory, appear to me now like playing cards--presumably because a bridge game was keeping the enemy busy. She trembled and twitched as I kissed the corner of her parted lips and the hot lobe of her ear. A cluster of stars palely glowed above us, between the silhouettes of long thin leaves; that vibrant sky seemed as naked as she was under her light frock. I saw her face in the sky, strangely distinct, as if it emitted a faint radiance of its own. Her legs, her lovely live legs, were not too close together, and when my hand located what it sought, a dreamy and eerie expression, half-pleasure, half-pain, came over those childish features. She sat a little higher than I, and whenever in her solitary ecstasy she was led to kiss me, her head would bend with a sleepy, soft, drooping movement that was almost woeful, and her bare knees caught and compressed my wrist, and slackened again; and her quivering mouth, distorted by the acridity of some mysterious potion, with a sibilant intake of breath came near to my face. She would try to relieve the pain of love by first roughly rubbing her dry lips against mine; then my darling would draw away with a nervous toss of her hair, and then again come darkly near and let me feed on her open mouth, while with a generosity that was ready to offer her everything, my heart, my throat, my entrails, I gave her to hold in her awkward fist the scepter of my passion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad ero writing, fucking a loli in a VN
FUAA FUAA!
Generic Japanese Name-Sama!
Don't look at my lewd pussy, it's too embarassing!
Fuaa fuaa!
My hips are moving on their own!
I guess it can't be helped!
Wait if you do that I'll... I'll...
FUAAAA CUMMING ON ONII-CHAN'S NAUGHTY COCK
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  #59  
Old 2011-01-24, 14:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
musique concrete
ah yes truly the most fitting genre of music for use as BGM

wanting better music in eroge is fine but let's not get ridiculous okay

Personally, I want more eroge soundtracks like Oretsuba - specifically the jazzy stuff in Shuusuke's chapter and the techno/trance in Hayato's. Definitely leaves more of an impression than the random crappy MIDI ditties that accompany most games. The electronica in Umineko is all top-notch too.

Also, I love Alicesoft music by Shade, we definitely need more stuff like his battle tracks.
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  #60  
Old 2011-01-24, 14:11
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I want more acoustic music; since I'm not really hot for electronica, instrumental stuff should do the thing.

Last edited by LoSs; 2011-01-24 at 20:47.
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