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  #106  
Old 2010-08-26, 10:06
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They need to learn how to get better themselves. And keep their grubby hands off translating languages they need obvious improvement in.
You're missing the point. There isn't a single piece of art in the history of universe that hasn't been criticized. It's a mix of matters of preference, taste, beliefs, viewpoints, etc. It comes from differing opinions of humans. But just because there's a criticism doesn't mean it's reasonable.

So when someone says "Your work is terrible", that comment is useless because you have no idea how legitimate it is. If you have problem with a work, then explain why in a constructive criticism so you can help, not hurt, the person and the work. Otherwise, your comment is indeed just a troll comment.
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  #107  
Old 2010-08-26, 10:17
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Exactly. The stupidity of the fan never ceases to amaze me. That the fan somehow thinks he can judge the quality of a translation, don't make me laugh. If it is anyone deserving of scorn and ridicule it is not the translators but the fans. The visual novel fan-base is one of the worst around, and that is not even debatable.

Translators or NOT fans. Translators do not rage when the original creators assert their rights to protect their work. Translators respect the rights of the original creators.
How are translators not fans? You mean they just randomly translate works they don't even like? They may try to keep themselves from blind fanboyism yes, but they too should like the works themselves, otherwise why devote so much time and effort on those particular works? I'm talking about the context here. I'm not trying to argue with the word, because that's just semantics, analogous to being "politically correct". Not what's important here.

I'm not saying this in terms of fans judging the translations, no. I'm saying that the translators need to stop with the excessive standards and then scorn at the "inferior" rivals/audience tho can't meet their brilliance. If they would just stop being overconcerned about quality exclusively, and allow some attention on other things (efficiency, availability, community), then this wouldn't happen in the first place. That's what I mean by "just do your best and let other people appreciate your works, don't overshoot yourself". It has nothing to do with the fans' perception of quality, that was not my point at all. It's the translators' attitude on people that view their works. If you're not happy with other people viewing your work and appreciating it, then there's something wrong with your attitude.
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  #108  
Old 2010-08-26, 15:14
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You're missing the point. There isn't a single piece of art in the history of universe that hasn't been criticized. It's a mix of matters of preference, taste, beliefs, viewpoints, etc. It comes from differing opinions of humans. But just because there's a criticism doesn't mean it's reasonable.

So when someone says "Your work is terrible", that comment is useless because you have no idea how legitimate it is. If you have problem with a work, then explain why in a constructive criticism so you can help, not hurt, the person and the work. Otherwise, your comment is indeed just a troll comment.
How about ixrec's blatant disregard for context, sometimes completely wrong understanding of grammar, and other hilarious issues that were corrected by another, more capable being (and yet sometimes disregarded because he's a bigheaded buffoon)?
How about Agilis's complete lack of regard for how a sentence reads in English to an English reader?
And these are actually the "better" translations out there because you get hilarious things like people who barely know BOTH languages working on things like Hatsukoi.

Sometimes things just aren't as nice as "let's all hold hands and be constructive together." If it's shit, it's shit.
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  #109  
Old 2010-08-26, 15:31
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  #110  
Old 2010-08-26, 16:23
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How about ixrec's blatant disregard for context, sometimes completely wrong understanding of grammar, and other hilarious issues that were corrected by another, more capable being (and yet sometimes disregarded because he's a bigheaded buffoon)?
How about Agilis's complete lack of regard for how a sentence reads in English to an English reader?
And these are actually the "better" translations out there because you get hilarious things like people who barely know BOTH languages working on things like Hatsukoi.

Sometimes things just aren't as nice as "let's all hold hands and be constructive together." If it's shit, it's shit.
So your attitude is "if there's anything wrong, throw away". Why then, do you cater to the "Japanese-illiterate" audience in the first place? Why even translate at all? Your attitude only discourages; it does not help anyone, and thus you're not contributing to the overall community. Think about how you became such a "top-level" translator and professional. You weren't "perfect" at first, and yet people didn't tell you to quit the job just because you weren't perfect back then. And now you're denying others any chance? You're lacking any sense of appreciation for people or hard work.

My point still stands. Doesn't matter if you're the next Shakespeare, with that kind of attitude that pushes away any fellow collaborators and fans, no one will like you and give you that respect you try so hard to collect. It's a community. It's not a community if you seclude yourself and boast over your creation.
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  #111  
Old 2010-08-26, 16:59
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So your attitude is "if there's anything wrong, throw away". Why then, do you cater to the "Japanese-illiterate" audience in the first place? Why even translate at all? Your attitude only discourages; it does not help anyone, and thus you're not contributing to the overall community. Think about how you became such a "top-level" translator and professional. You weren't "perfect" at first, and yet people didn't tell you to quit the job just because you weren't perfect back then. And now you're denying others any chance? You're lacking any sense of appreciation for people or hard work.

My point still stands. Doesn't matter if you're the next Shakespeare, with that kind of attitude that pushes away any fellow collaborators and fans, no one will like you and give you that respect you try so hard to collect. It's a community. It's not a community if you seclude yourself and boast over your creation.
I'm afraid you're reading into my post what you want to read. I personally think it's great that translations happen. I think all people studying Japanese should get opportunities to learn and improve. However, my point is that the skill level of these self-proclaimed translators is not at "translator" level. To make it clearer, the translating skill of these guys is quite below the English/story writing skill of Stephenie Meier.
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  #112  
Old 2010-08-26, 16:59
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How are translators not fans? You mean they just randomly translate works they don't even like? They may try to keep themselves from blind fanboyism yes, but they too should like the works themselves, otherwise why devote so much time and effort on those particular works? I'm talking about the context here. I'm not trying to argue with the word, because that's just semantics, analogous to being "politically correct". Not what's important here.
I'm assuming from context of the original post that "fans" in this use case means "fans of the translated work" i.e. people who are relying on the translation. So, I do not think the post you are replying to inferred in any way that translators weren't fans.

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I'm not saying this in terms of fans judging the translations, no. I'm saying that the translators need to stop with the excessive standards and then scorn at the "inferior" rivals/audience tho can't meet their brilliance.
I ask again: what do you define "scorn" as? Is it actually that they are scornful or is it because people are misunderstanding what they are saying?

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If they would just stop being overconcerned about quality exclusively, and allow some attention on other things (efficiency, availability, community), then this wouldn't happen in the first place.
I agree that community (being cordial) is important, but I feel that efficiency and availability do not really matter as much and paints a picture where it's the translator's duty to serve the fanbase, because it seems to say that works should be made available fast and easy to obtain. Furthermore, if someone's really interested in something as a hobby, why wouldn't they want to hone their skills and up the quality? Some people like doing things to relax, but some people really like to see how far they can go with something. I know I've constantly set some pretty high goals in my music hobby, and as soon as I reach one, I set it even higher, just to see if one day I could compete with commercial productions.

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That's what I mean by "just do your best and let other people appreciate your works, don't overshoot yourself".
Out of curiosity, but does tackling a work way beyond your scope count as "overshooting" oneself?

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It has nothing to do with the fans' perception of quality, that was not my point at all. It's the translators' attitude on people that view their works. If you're not happy with other people viewing your work and appreciating it, then there's something wrong with your attitude.
I'm not sure where you are going with this tangent. I thought the debate was partially about how translators have a seemingly negative attitude about people *not* appreciating their works, including cases where people who are not qualified to judge a translation are trying to judge translations?

----

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So your attitude is "if there's anything wrong, throw away".
The impression I got from that post you were responding to was "I should be able to say outright that some translations are not very good." Obviously that by itself is not very useful, but he did point out some examples to back up his claims. I don't see how you get that conclusion from his post, though.

Quote:
Why then, do you cater to the "Japanese-illiterate" audience in the first place? Why even translate at all? Your attitude only discourages; it does not help anyone, and thus you're not contributing to the overall community. Think about how you became such a "top-level" translator and professional. You weren't "perfect" at first, and yet people didn't tell you to quit the job just because you weren't perfect back then. And now you're denying others any chance? You're lacking any sense of appreciation for people or hard work.
And here's where I feel you blow things out of proportion from a conclusion that I feel wasn't very solidly supported, even though you might be right, since I can't read the mind of the poster you were responding to. One thing you're kind of missing on, though, is that even though people all start out as beginners, some people do not know their own limits on what they are capable of. Therefore, you'll have people who start much earlier in their learning process in publicly contributing compared to some other people. Perhaps the poster is referring to these people who start out too early?

Quote:
My point still stands. Doesn't matter if you're the next Shakespeare, with that kind of attitude that pushes away any fellow collaborators and fans, no one will like you and give you that respect you try so hard to collect. It's a community. It's not a community if you seclude yourself and boast over your creation.
I agree that community is a big deal, but:
1) not everyone is trying to collect respect in doing their translations
2) even if they come across as boasting, are they intentionally doing it or does it only appear that way from some people's point of view?
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  #113  
Old 2010-08-26, 17:07
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So your attitude is "if there's anything wrong, throw away". Why then, do you cater to the "Japanese-illiterate" audience in the first place? Why even translate at all? Your attitude only discourages; it does not help anyone, and thus you're not contributing to the overall community. Think about how you became such a "top-level" translator and professional. You weren't "perfect" at first, and yet people didn't tell you to quit the job just because you weren't perfect back then. And now you're denying others any chance? You're lacking any sense of appreciation for people or hard work.

My point still stands. Doesn't matter if you're the next Shakespeare, with that kind of attitude that pushes away any fellow collaborators and fans, no one will like you and give you that respect you try so hard to collect. It's a community. It's not a community if you seclude yourself and boast over your creation.
The great translators have no need of "community." This is because the truly great translators are not translating for you the fanboy. Nor do they have any need for mediocre translators who butcher the original material (and who quite frankly are no better than fanboys).

From a reputable translator:

Quote:
As you may or may not be aware, we localize these games as a hobby, gaining enjoyment out of the technical and artistic challenge involved. If you or any other fanboy/girl gets any pleasure out of our translations, then that is a strictly secondary side-effect that is beyond our control.
The above quote has already been referenced earlier in this thread, but some don't quite get it so it needs to be referenced again.

From the same translator:

Quote:
We’re not fans.

We don’t have the mentality of fans, nor do we have the production process of fans, nor do we have the fans’ disregard for the rights of the original author.

And this is not a fan translation. Don’t call it one.
The great translators, translate for the technical and artistic challenge involved as well as a reverence for the original material (please do not confuse this with being a "fan"). Whether you read what they do is of no concern to them. They would just assume you didn't since you are no position to comprehend what they are trying to accomplish.

To wit:

Quote:
Finally, think about it this way -- if you are a person who is playing our demos, you are doing so because you probably do not understand Japanese well enough to be playing it in the original language. If the above happens to be true of you, just where did you get the idea in your head that you had any ability to judge how close to the originals our JP->EN translations are?
Just stick to your ero-crap because anything else is beyond your understanding.

Have a nice day.
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  #114  
Old 2010-08-26, 17:43
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Apologies to earlier quotes for not answering for time being, but I just had to reply to this first.
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The great translators have no need of "community." This is because the truly great translators are not translating for you the fanboy. Nor do they have any need for mediocre translators who butcher the original material (and who quite frankly are no better than fanboys).
OK, seriously. They are wasting their time if they don't care about the community. I mean, just why? Why waste their time doing this? Do they have no sense of respect for fellow human beings?

THIS is what I'm talking about. Just general scorn and rudeness towards people. I don't care HOW great their works, THAT is uncalled for.

You're just trolling.
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The great translators, translate for the technical and artistic challenge involved as well as a reverence for the original material (please do not confuse this with being a "fan"). Whether you read what they do is of no concern to them. They would just assume you didn't since you are no position to comprehend what they are trying to accomplish.
There's no point of their so-called "accomplishment". Visual novel translation isn't going to save lives. The way you present them is completely selfish and helps no one. Simply put, if you translate, and you're willing to share the work, it makes no sense that you're not appreciating those that see your "great work" and allow them to appreciate you to. If you're going to be so antisocial, guess what? Don't share.

Stop being an egoist.
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  #115  
Old 2010-08-26, 17:49
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I suggest you people register before you post. It's confusing to know who is who.

Next time I post I will also register.
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  #116  
Old 2010-08-26, 19:14
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THIS is what I'm talking about. Just general scorn and rudeness towards people. I don't care HOW great their works, THAT is uncalled for.
I feel like Zalas had already addressed this problem in a way. There are different types of translators. Some do it for themselves, some do it for others. Insani.org upfront, declared that they are the former. You just have to accept that people are different. They didn't do it for you, or the community, or anything else.

They did it for themselves - and that's fine.
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  #117  
Old 2010-08-26, 19:26
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OK, seriously. They are wasting their time if they don't care about the community. I mean, just why? Why waste their time doing this?
Perhaps they find it fun to translate? While it's nice to give back and be philanthropic and stuff, does that really need to be a requirement for a hobby?
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Do they have no sense of respect for fellow human beings?
Not sure where you pulled this conclusion from. Is contributing back to a community while working on a hobby a requirement for being able to respect fellow human beings?
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THIS is what I'm talking about. Just general scorn and rudeness towards people. I don't care HOW great their works, THAT is uncalled for.
I think your reasoning is really unclear. The current way it sounds to me is that you're saying it's rude that people working on a hobby need to contribute back to the community in the way you like, which is not very clear to me.
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  #118  
Old 2010-08-26, 19:42
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insani have certainly shown scorn and been incredibly rude disrespectful towards other people (well, I shouldn't say insani, should I? I mean basically just gp32- chocoed is quite a nice person), but I wouldn't say there's any trace of that in their website FAQ. They were just making their position clear.

Translating for yourselves and nobody else is fine.

Attacking other people, well, that's not fine. I don't think anyone considers that acceptable.

Exhibit A: http://altogether.insani.org/2008/0.html

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Welcome to the home of the 2008 season of al|together, the annual festival for the translation of freeware visual novels. It has been two long years since our last festival, and it is hard for me to believe that it has already been three years since our inaugural season. Much has changed since then. There are some out there who believe that it is necessary to create some arbitrary grading scale in order to judge translation quality. There are some out there who believe that it is perfectly okay to output a barely-readable "first-pass" translation, to be "edited" later by people who have barely any knowledge of the original text. There are some out there who believe that it is perfectly ethical to translate another person's stories without the original author's knowledge and permission.
(emphasis mine)

This is worth taking note of-- insani are saying that, since 2006 (not before) there are some that believe it is "perfectly ethical to translate another person's stories without the original author's knowledge and permission.".

Apparently it is acceptable to translate another person's stories without their knowledge or consent if:

a) Your name is gp32
and b) It's 2006 or earlier

It's also acceptable to display your translations of other people's stories conducted without knowledge or consent on your group's website for all to see, even though translating them is unacceptable.

So what happened in 2006 that made a perfectly acceptable, even laudable activity suddenly anathema?

gp32 changed his mind.
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  #119  
Old 2010-08-26, 19:46
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I suggest you people register before you post. It's confusing to know who is who.

Next time I post I will also register.
Fine I guess. I expect the other person to register too.
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I feel like Zalas had already addressed this problem in a way. There are different types of translators. Some do it for themselves, some do it for others. Insani.org upfront, declared that they are the former. You just have to accept that people are different. They didn't do it for you, or the community, or anything else.

They did it for themselves - and that's fine.
No, it's not fine. Not with how they presented themselves.

No one can stop them if they want to take a work and translate it out of pure hobby or boredom. But when you explicitly share the work with other people, there's some ethics between the translators and the audience. When you share, you're implying that you like it when other people view your work, and you welcome thanks from those people. If you really don't care about "sharing" the work at all, and only want to upload it for the sake of backup perhaps, then just post a title and a link. Don't decorate it expecting compliments.

Insani has this fancy site that acts like it wants to share its work. The implication of a site designed like that is that it expects praise and appreciation from whoever receives their work, for the efforts and quality. These "pro translators" with these attitudes would like to be viewed as those that produce high-quality, after all. And yet the translators hold those that use their work in contempt? That's being unfair, double standards here. You want to be treated well by other people, but you're not treating them well. That kind of stance is what I and others in this thread called elitist and related words.
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Perhaps they find it fun to translate? While it's nice to give back and be philanthropic and stuff, does that really need to be a requirement for a hobby?

Not sure where you pulled this conclusion from. Is contributing back to a community while working on a hobby a requirement for being able to respect fellow human beings?

I think your reasoning is really unclear. The current way it sounds to me is that you're saying it's rude that people working on a hobby need to contribute back to the community in the way you like, which is not very clear to me.
If they find it fun to translate, then they should make it clear that their hobby is private in nature. Even then they don't have to put it in such a disrespectful way. Acting elitist like this goes against, for instance, what Cosign pointed out earlier. "Are you really demanding quality and being critics to free translators?" to paraphrase Cosign. The fans, yes, should be content with what they get, and if they're just not satisfied, they can take active part in contributing and improving the quality. But the translators themselves also need to know their place I'm saying.

That user that posted what I replied to, as well as the insani quote in page 1, is just being unreasonably rude. And the user also paints insani as unreasonably rude, though it may be true after all. Hence my responses. By "treating other human beings with respect" I mean that this rudeness is uncalled for. The poster, and translators like insani, could've handled it nicely, instead of making others hate them.

---------------------------

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I'm afraid you're reading into my post what you want to read. I personally think it's great that translations happen. I think all people studying Japanese should get opportunities to learn and improve. However, my point is that the skill level of these self-proclaimed translators is not at "translator" level. To make it clearer, the translating skill of these guys is quite below the English/story writing skill of Stephenie Meier.
Thanks for being reasonable, unlike that other guest.

I'm saying is that translators need to be haughty, regardless of which end of the spectrum they're in and whether they're giving or receiving criticisms. Just saying that they're bad will need some follow-up explanation or else how would you differentiate between a troll comment and a genuine pointing out of a flaw? Also, subpar translation that still works is better than no translation. You feel otherwise, how about coming up with something better instead of just yelling. That's how you can help out.
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I'm assuming from context of the original post that "fans" in this use case means "fans of the translated work" i.e. people who are relying on the translation. So, I do not think the post you are replying to inferred in any way that translators weren't fans.

I ask again: what do you define "scorn" as? Is it actually that they are scornful or is it because people are misunderstanding what they are saying?

I agree that community (being cordial) is important, but I feel that efficiency and availability do not really matter as much and paints a picture where it's the translator's duty to serve the fanbase, because it seems to say that works should be made available fast and easy to obtain. Furthermore, if someone's really interested in something as a hobby, why wouldn't they want to hone their skills and up the quality? Some people like doing things to relax, but some people really like to see how far they can go with something. I know I've constantly set some pretty high goals in my music hobby, and as soon as I reach one, I set it even higher, just to see if one day I could compete with commercial productions.

Out of curiosity, but does tackling a work way beyond your scope count as "overshooting" oneself?

I'm not sure where you are going with this tangent. I thought the debate was partially about how translators have a seemingly negative attitude about people *not* appreciating their works, including cases where people who are not qualified to judge a translation are trying to judge translations?
I thought the post I replied to said "We translators are NOT fans" so I replied that way. It would make things trivial if it's as you said, "fans of the translated work". I meant "fans of the original work".

I know not all translators are arrogant like this and lacking a sense of respect and appreciation. I'm just talking about those that have this attitude, those "having contempt towards people reading their translations". It's fine to set your goals high in a constructive and helpful way, but don't delude yourself thinking that you're a god for translating some entertainment program. By overshooting yourself, I guess I mean that the translators need to know where they are with things. They're just doing free translations (if they're free, that is) in a doujin-like manner (if they're actually licensing and redistributing that's another story).

Elitist attitude occurs when they forget what they're doing and overhype it, and then belittle other translators and "fans" because they are inferior. I guess you're right that quality is more appreciated in this community. But, in the end, it's quality of translation, not some grand mission. The translators can't forget what they're really doing.

About appreciation of works: I wasn't talking about how fans perceive the quality of translations. My points were about translators' attitudes - haughty attitudes are problematic. If they're rude and mean towards everyone, then they're going to lose respect, the very thing they want for their works as you said. So why are they causing themselves harm this way?
Quote:
The impression I got from that post you were responding to was "I should be able to say outright that some translations are not very good." Obviously that by itself is not very useful, but he did point out some examples to back up his claims. I don't see how you get that conclusion from his post, though.

And here's where I feel you blow things out of proportion from a conclusion that I feel wasn't very solidly supported, even though you might be right, since I can't read the mind of the poster you were responding to. One thing you're kind of missing on, though, is that even though people all start out as beginners, some people do not know their own limits on what they are capable of. Therefore, you'll have people who start much earlier in their learning process in publicly contributing compared to some other people. Perhaps the poster is referring to these people who start out too early?

I agree that community is a big deal, but:
1) not everyone is trying to collect respect in doing their translations
2) even if they come across as boasting, are they intentionally doing it or does it only appear that way from some people's point of view?
I'm saying, don't just blindly oppose those you think are inferior to you. Instead be constructive. That's how you would help the overall community. I suppose the post just came a bit strong to me because I thought that guest was the one that quoted Insani.

To follow up on that is when I talked about the beginnings. If you didn't start out as perfect but developed your skills, it's only fair that you allow others to do the same. Just putting down people and their work because you think they're not good is not the best thing to do. But I'm pretty sure the other person already understands what I said and thus replied to it.

Again, the very fact that you are sharing the work means you expect to deal with other people, so you need to have a sense of mutual respect among the people. That's why I mentioned community.

Last edited by anomaly; 2010-08-26 at 20:31.
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  #120  
Old 2010-08-26, 21:31
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insani seems to be a recurring theme throughout this thread. Or should I say gp32 since he is basically insani.

Certainly gp32 is rude and disrespectful (and as Asceai seems to be implying in his post, somewhat of a hypocrite) . I'm sure Zalas will go all "blue code" and provide all kinds of eloquent reasons as to why his behavior is justified as he has a few times in this thread, but that's not the point. The point is that gp32 has moved on to other things and has not been active in translating since 2008. He is no longer relevant; insani is no longer relevant.

Another name that has come up a couple times is Moogy. He is also rude and disrespectful. But he's also a clown. 100% of what he spews out is solely for his own amusement to try and get a rise out of you people. You really can't take him seriously.

The bottom line the notion of the translator having an elitist attitude is a bit overblown.

And at the risk of being rude and disrespectful myself I have to say that the trolls in this thread have played some of you like a fiddle.
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