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General Discussion Theres a Clannad of AIR-headed Kanon fodder being shot by the Little Busters After Tomoyo on a Planet-arian.

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  #76  
Old 2010-04-29, 14:52
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Originally Posted by zalas View Post
Excuse my thread derailment, but I hope you mean the music industry as in the "big players". It's the ridiculously deranged contracts and hoops the big players set up that prevents musicians from benefiting much from sales, not the idea of a record label in general. If a record label acted as simply a marketing and distribution firm for a reasonable cut of the artist's profits, then I have no problems with them, because face it, not every artist is going to be knowledgeable in how to market their songs or how to do print runs. I'd rather that the artists spend their time on the production of music and the record labels spend their time distributing the music.
I'm saying the music industry should die, not that it should stop existing. If every record label currently in the industry would go bankrupt, people won't suddenly forget about what the music industry used to be like. The entire industry would just restart, and I think this time it will be much better, as musicians now know their rights and have more freedom of choice in how to distribute their music (the record label near you doesn't offer a good contract? Fine, you just contact online vendor X or other record label Y three states away).

Personally, I think music should be free to listen to, with people only being paid to produce it (concerts, requested music (for example background music), etc), but I won't force those views on other musicians. I do think that free music would become a LOT more popular if the current music industry were to die, though, and it'll be heavy competition for musicians who charge people to listen to their music.
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  #77  
Old 2010-04-30, 14:28
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I believe instead that fan-subbing is more productive for the Japanese visual novel companies. Because people are translating it in the west people like me can buy the original game and with the translation actually understand it. Where before i would not of made such a purchase since i for one do not comprehend Japanese all to well. Because of the translation i am now buying the game which boosts up sales for certain products. I for one probably would not of bought fate/ stay night if it was not for the translation patch.
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  #78  
Old 2010-04-30, 15:49
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While that's true, it also means that the fan-translated games are no longer localizable because most fans have already played it in English. While it is very unlikely that type-moon will go out of their way to localize, if there WAS an VN industry boom in the west, they'd probably want in on the action too, and there would have that much less buyers for a pre-existing translated game.

There's also the issue that there are a few complete scripts uploaded for everyone to read in some cases. Some deprived and extremely depressing person may be reading through them for free to learn the story. Not a great argument, but it's copyrighted creative work nonetheless.
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  #79  
Old 2010-04-30, 21:59
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While that's true, it also means that the fan-translated games are no longer localizable because most fans have already played it in English.
What a bullshit. Take 1C for example, they've used cracked EXEcutables (take a peek in the exe - you'll see Razor1911 signature) and re-edited fan-translations for their latest GTA series releases (nope, I'm not joking here), and haven't asked anybody.

On another example, Toki wo Kakeru Shoujo fan-translation has been incorporated into official Russian DVD release (with asking for translator's permission).

What makes you think an eroge company cannot do the same? What makes you think the people won't buy translated eroge for a reasonable price, even if fan-translation is already available? Maybe you should change your "lawful" point-of-view, otherwise you cannot see the things as plain simple as they are?

Last edited by dsp2003; 2010-04-30 at 22:09.
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  #80  
Old 2010-04-30, 22:09
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Regarding topic, it's hard to say if it is actually helping or not.

The thing is, the mind set of anime and visual novel fans in general, internationally, has become so low that they will rather watch or read something for free, when that time could have spent on purchasing and enjoying a legal product. It already has become normal to download soundtracks, watch fansubs on the day of the release, for many people. Although there's the wait for translations, people expect to try it out for free before becoming "fans". For those people, one piece of work is just one of many, but for the staff who worked on it, it is one of its kind...

Because the world is already like that, I think it is the fan's responsibility to building a community of their favorite work, even before a translation project goes up, and even after the tranlsation is done. And they need to try to condemn other translators if they are doing something morally wrong. I used to be a fansubber myself and I doubted my own group when they were forcing to finish a series that no one actually cared about...

If it was coming from someone like me, it might sound arrogant, but just my two cent.
Of course the visual novel industry needs to find a way to make localizations profitable as well...

Last edited by EvoSpace; 2010-04-30 at 22:57.
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  #81  
Old 2010-04-30, 23:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsp2003 View Post
What a bullshit. Take 1C for example, they've used cracked EXEcutables (take a peek in the exe - you'll see Razor1911 signature) and re-edited fan-translations for their latest GTA series releases (nope, I'm not joking here), and haven't asked anybody.

On another example, Toki wo Kakeru Shoujo fan-translation has been incorporated into official Russian DVD release (with asking for translator's permission).
Give me data about their sales if you want to disprove my statement. Giving examples of people being bastards when I'm talking about impact on sales doesn't argue against my point in the least.

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Originally Posted by dsp2003 View Post
What makes you think an eroge company cannot do the same? What makes you think the people won't buy translated eroge for a reasonable price, even if fan-translation is already available? Maybe you should change your "lawful" point-of-view, otherwise you cannot see the things as plain simple as they are?
What makes you think they will do the same? How does that even go against my statement if they do? What makes you think that people will buy them when a fan-translation is already available? What makes you think your points were any more valid than mine just because they were in question form?
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  #82  
Old 2010-04-30, 23:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sengoku7 View Post
I believe instead that fan-subbing is more productive for the Japanese visual novel companies. Because people are translating it in the west people like me can buy the original game and with the translation actually understand it. Where before i would not of made such a purchase since i for one do not comprehend Japanese all to well. Because of the translation i am now buying the game which boosts up sales for certain products. I for one probably would not of bought fate/ stay night if it was not for the translation patch.
That depends if the increase in sales is significant enough for them to care. If the translation only manages to push a few dozen copies but simultaneously results in a lot of piracy (which also reduces the likelihood of legitimate localizations later), they'd rather do without its existence.

There's also the matter of ownership. As creators, many want ultimate control over how their product develops, even when it comes to localization.
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  #83  
Old 2010-05-01, 00:34
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Well first I don't know if my opinion on this mather is really relevant since in I live in Argentina (South America) and every that is in dollars I have to pay X4 (thanks to the crappy value of my national currency) what and american pays (and the euro hurts my wallet even more), so probably this issue is more relevent in regards to european and north american costumers (not forgetting australians).

In regards to fan translation or legal releases of course I prefer legal (Its the same to me if the VN is released in digital format like Mangagamer or physical format), but thanks to the everything being pricy to me I have the policy pirate and play first and buy it after If I think its worth my money. Doing this I have bought the following eroges/vns (and I'm not ashamed to say that I bought A LOT less than I have played,like I've played almost every VN/Eroge released in english legally or fan-translated, and that Mangagamer products being in euros make it REALLY hard to buy it for me since I have to pay them like X5 what a european pays and lets be honest how many of you would pay 250 dollars for a VN if you were an mostly unenployed college student?) :

Licensed:
-True Love (being the first eroge I ever played)
-Seasons of Sakura
-Ever 17
-Divi-Dead
-Crescendo (dowload version)
-Yume Miru Kusuri (download version)
-Snow Sakura (download version)
-Kira Kira
-Shuffle
= 9 games (I just had to change my mobo and ram, but as soon as I get the cash I'm buying Curtain Call).

Fan-translated (imported):
-Tsukibako AKA "My precius" (Tsukihime, +Plus Disc, Kagetsu Toyha, music)
-Fate/Stay Night
-Fate/Hollow Ataraxia (no translation yet but I LOVE Typemoon)
-One -To The Radiant Season-
-Tears To Tiara
-Kanon
-Clannad
-Sengoku Rance (and I would buy EVERY part of the saga if it were translated)
= 8 games (or 9 if you want to count Tsukibako as 2)

Others fan-translated:
-Melty Blood
-Melty Blood Act Cadenza
-Melty Blood Actress Again
-Fate/unlimited codes (for PS2)
= 4 games.

As you can see I bought about 20 games in 10 years (and you know I played a lot more) and I have to admit that almost everyone of the ones that were fan translated I liked more.
But I WOULD rebuy at least every Typemoon, Key and Alice-Soft game I already have if:
- The price changed to adapt the wester market
- The translations were revised (I'm not even asking that they re-translate them from scratch just work on them, even though Takajun is a genius translator)
- Adjust the engines to modern pcs (vista/seven) and give us any kind of upgrades or re-releases those games had (like they selling the voiced version of Clannad and One and not the old original version.)

I wish I could help Mangagamer more but now all I can promise is that by the end of the year I'll buy the bundle pack of Edelweiss and Eiden Fantasia too (probably for christmas).

PS:Sorry if the post is too long or the information its not relevant, but I wanted to give the point of view of the situation of a guy like me not living in the first world, that uses piracy as a way to guard my thin wallet.
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  #84  
Old 2010-05-01, 06:59
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Originally Posted by Pirkaf View Post
I mostly agree. I remember reading an article on ANN several days ago. It's title was "Manga sales dropped - scanlations are to blame." It's so easy to write something like that and blame everything on piracy.
Consider sales of Higurashi. Of the six volumes released, four (Onikakushi 1 and 2, Watanagashi 1, and Tatarigoroshi 1) were fully scanlated prior to the commercial release. Two (Watanagashi 2 and Tatarigoroshi 2) made the NY Times top 10 lists. Not conclusive on its own, but suggestive.
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  #85  
Old 2010-05-01, 07:21
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Consider sales of Higurashi. Of the six volumes released, four (Onikakushi 1 and 2, Watanagashi 1, and Tatarigoroshi 1) were fully scanlated prior to the commercial release. Two (Watanagashi 2 and Tatarigoroshi 2) made the NY Times top 10 lists. Not conclusive on its own, but suggestive.
I can understand how people get to the simple conclusion 'so piracy must've decreased sales of the previous volumes', however, if you think about it, it could just as well be the other way around.
At first, I hadn't planned on buying the He Is My Master manga, but since it was free on the internet anyways, I decided to read the first three volumes, which were scanlated. I bought volume 4 and 5 after that. If it weren't for the pirated volumes 1-3, I wouldn't have bought those two volumes.
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  #86  
Old 2010-05-01, 08:14
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Originally Posted by VDZ View Post
I can understand how people get to the simple conclusion 'so piracy must've decreased sales of the previous volumes', however, if you think about it, it could just as well be the other way around.
At first, I hadn't planned on buying the He Is My Master manga, but since it was free on the internet anyways, I decided to read the first three volumes, which were scanlated. I bought volume 4 and 5 after that. If it weren't for the pirated volumes 1-3, I wouldn't have bought those two volumes.
I don't think that carries over to VNs, unless you count in sequels or fan disks, which are few and far between. I see your point, though I'm pretty much the opposite. VNs tend to be much more pricey than manga as well, which may influence your decisions in this case.

Last edited by NTX; 2010-05-01 at 08:31.
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  #87  
Old 2010-05-01, 08:16
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Originally Posted by dsp2003 View Post
What a bullshit. Take 1C for example, they've used cracked EXEcutables (take a peek in the exe - you'll see Razor1911 signature) and re-edited fan-translations for their latest GTA series releases (nope, I'm not joking here), and haven't asked anybody.

On another example, Toki wo Kakeru Shoujo fan-translation has been incorporated into official Russian DVD release (with asking for translator's permission).
This is also copyright violation. Translations are the copyright of the translator. Even if the translation is then distributed in violation of the original material's copyright, that does not change. If minori were (ha!) to release an English version that contained material from TLWiki, they would themselves be guilty of infringing upon the copyright of the original translators.
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  #88  
Old 2010-05-01, 10:12
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Originally Posted by Toranth View Post
This is also copyright violation. Translations are the copyright of the translator. Even if the translation is then distributed in violation of the original material's copyright, that does not change. If minori were (ha!) to release an English version that contained material from TLWiki, they would themselves be guilty of infringing upon the copyright of the original translators.
Actually, I can state for a fact, that translations are NOT copyright of the translator. When a translator is hired and paid to create a translation, the copyright of the translation belongs to the company who hired them, not the translator who did the work. Likewise, the company who hires him must have already acquired the legal rights to produce said translation by licensing them from the original company who holds the original copyright for the work in question.

There are a few rare cases where the translator may be allowed to retain some reproduction privileges for his translation, such as the right to reproduce it as a sample of his work to be included on applications and resumes, but these are still few and far between, and have to be negotiated in advance.

As the material on TLwiki is technically in violation of copyright law, so too are any translations submitted. The translators have no rights to those translations whatsoever as they are illegal to begin with.

This last part is what I believe to be true, but I could easily be mistaken. Please correct me if I am: Since the translations on TLwiki have no rights, Minori would actually be able to use them if they so choose for some crazy reason. However, I believe the translator would still be allowed to demand a reasonable compensation for the work provided. Either way, I doubt any company would ever do that, since it could easily go to court, and it would be much easier to just hire someone to do it from scratch.
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  #89  
Old 2010-05-01, 12:12
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Doesn't work that way, kouryuu. No matter how many laws you violate, you own the copyright to what you create unless you choose not to own it.
You don't own the copyright to your translations because you signed a contract, declaring that you give the copyright of your translations to MangaGamer (assuming MangaGamer has done that properly - would be very interesting if they didn't).

It works like this: The developer produces a work. They own the copyright to this work, as they created it. The translator creates a derivative work (the translation). The translator owns the copyright to the derivative work, but also requires permission of the copyright holder of the original work to publish his or her work, as there is (AFAIK) no legal exception for fan translations. (Some kinds of derivative works are an exception to this law in certain countries.)
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  #90  
Old 2010-05-01, 12:47
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kouryuu

Under Canadian law the copyright of a translation is explicitly owned by the person translating it (the copyright can be transferred of course, as it usually is under contracts), although the act of translating (outside of traditional exceptions,) would be infringement of the original copyright. The reasoning behind this is that it takes skill to translate something beyond an automatic process, therefore the translation itself is considered an original work created by the person translating it. I would imagine that this is similar in most jurisdictions, and I am not aware of a single location where a copyright of a derivative work, even if illegally used (some places a translation is legal, as long as it is not distributed), automatically goes back to the owner of the copyright.
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