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  #1  
Old 2009-09-15, 13:28
arkady18 arkady18 is offline
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Default Fate/Stay Night realta nua files

Hi, guys! I'm new in this forum.
About me:
I'm leading a translation project of Fate/Stay Night in Italian. It's based on the English patch, but we're improving the translation checking the original Japanese files and correcting the enormous mistakes made by mirror moon translation.

Anyways, I would like to improve even more this translation making a patch which will upgrade the gallery of the pc version of the game with the one of the ps2 game. But I don't know how to extract the archives in the dvd. What I want to ask is if anyone here knows an extractor to do it. I guess I will not have problems to create a patch with the realta nua files (maybe I'm too optimistXD). I found on the net a relata nua patch made by a certain wakuwaku, but that patch simply adds the last episode and the CGs of two scenes. So I want to make a patch for all the CGs. Since he managed to create such a patch, I should be able to do it too.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 2009-09-15, 13:45
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Maybe you could ask wakuwaku how he did it?
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Old 2009-09-15, 18:10
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You're basing your translation off a translation you feel has "enormous mistakes".

First of all what are these mistakes and why don't you just go from the source material?
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  #4  
Old 2009-09-16, 02:38
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jyuichi, that's simple - "base your translation on the language you understand really well". Another obvious thing - most of English-speaking VN community don't understand Japanese well.
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  #5  
Old 2009-09-16, 03:57
arkady18 arkady18 is offline
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Yes, I realized my foolishness afterwards.^^ I could easily ask to him. I thought that only after I

opened this topic. I'll try to ask him.

Quote:
You're basing your translation off a translation you feel has "enormous mistakes".

First of all what are these mistakes and why don't you just go from the source material?
Yeah, I'm so stupid! When I declare something, I have to explain exactly what I want to say...
Well, I'd like to translate entirely from Japanese version, but I have Japanese knowledge just as

one who studied Japanese for only an year(on October, I'll be a second year student at my university

of foreign languages, studing American English and Japanese). Yes, I may appear too conceited (and

maybe I am) declaring something as "that translation has got some enormous mistakes", but I have my

points. Overall, that's a really good translation, expecially if you consider that the translator is

Japanese and not an English native speaker. But there is something I don't like in his way of

translation.. No, there are two aspects I don't like: some of his choices of translation and some of

his choices of "not translation" or edits he did. Well, the choices of translation are something I

can only agree or disagree, but I can't say they are wrong only because I disagree. But, when it

comes to some edits or some decisions to not translate something, I guess I can say it's a bad

thing.
Now, what my group is doing is translating off mirror moon translation(we're at about 85% of the

Fate route) and I'm checking the translated files (both Italian and English ones) comparing them

with the original Japanese files. In this way I found out that some phrases are different from the

way they look in the original Japanese version and, I can't explain to myself why, some phrases that

in Japanese exist in English are totally erased. Now, I can't correct every errors I discover(since

my low experience in Japanese, the biggest regret I have, I'm able to say "that sentence is not well

translated", yet still I'm not able to fully understand some phrases), but, where I can, I'm trying

to do it.
It's useless to show you every error I correct, but I'll paste here some examples. Now, I understand

well English, but, as you can see, I'm not too able to speak it correctly: forgive me if my

translations are not grammatically correctXD

Beginning of the prologue(by mirror moon):
It was a thrust like lightning.
A spearhead thrust to pierce my heart.
Trying to dodge it would be useless.
Being lightning, it's invisible to the human eye.
But...
The lightning that tries to pierce me...
...Is repelled by the moonlight that tries to save me.
*page1|
Clang, a beautiful sound.
No, the sound before me is heavier than steel.
The armor she is wearing is not beautiful at all and as unrefined as the cold night.
The sound wasn't beautiful at all.
It was actually the sound of steel.
It's just that the knight is beautiful enough to turn it into a charming sound like a bell.
*page2|
"[line3]I ask of you. Are you my Master?"
She asks in a voice that lights up the darkness.
*page3|
"I have come forth in response to your summons.
From this time forward, my sword shall be with you and your fate shall be with me. Now, our

contract is complete."
*page4|
Yes, the contract has been completed.
When she chose me as her Master...
I'm sure I swore to help her too.
*page5|
The moonlight still lights up the darkness.
As if following the knight's example, the shed again falls silent.
*page6|
Time has stopped.
The scene lasts less than a second.
But...
I'm sure I'll remember this scene vividly even when I've gone to hell.
*page7|
The face slightly turned.
The quiet green eyes.
The instant becomes an eternity.
The blue outfit symbolizing her sways in the wind.
*page8|
[line4]A faint blue light filters in.
The golden hair shines in the moonlight.

My corrections:
It was a thrust like lightning.
A spearhead thrust to pierce my heart.
Trying to dodge it would have been useless.
Being lightning, it was invisible to the human eye.
But...
The lightning that was trying to pierce me...
...Was repelled by the moonlight that was trying to save me.
*page1|
*Sharan*, a beautiful sound.
No, the sound landed(*) before my very eyes was really heavier even than iron.
The armor she was wearing was not magnificent at all and as unrefined as the cold night air.
That noise wasn't beautiful at all.
It was actually the sound of steel.
It's just that the knight was beautiful enough to turn it into a charming sound like a bell.
*page2|
"[line4]I ask of you. Are you my Master?"
She asked in a voice that lighted up the darkness.
*page3|
"I have come forth in response to your summons.
From this time forward, my sword shall be with you and your fate shall be with me. [line3]Now,

our contract is complete."
*page4|
Yes, the contract had been completed.
When she chose me as her Master...
I'm sure I swore to help her too.
*page5|
The moonlight was still lighting up the darkness.
As if following the knight's example, the shed again fell silent.
*page6|
Time stopped.
Maybe, the scene lasted less than a second.
But...
I'm sure I'll remember that figure vividly even when I've fallen to Hell.
*page7|
The face slightly turned.
The utmost quiet holy green eyes.
The instant becomes an eternity.
The blue outfit symbolizing her sways in the wind.
*page8|
[line4]A faint blue light filtered in.
The golden hair shined in the moonlight.

Landed(*): I'm not sure. The Japanese evrb means: (1) to go down and stand, (2) to alight, to get

down.
About that sharan, it is the exact onomatopoeia which appears in the original file. Yes, when we

can, we have to translate onomatopeia as well, but clang is not appropriate, since that onomatopeia

"translates" into a word the sound of a shining. Just try too hear the sound which you can listen to

in the game.

Perhaps I made some errors in putting in English what I wanted to write down.
As you can see, [linex] code(which shows a long line in the game, as long as the number written in

the place of the x) something is erased and in the 95% of the cases is edited, changing the "x"

number: often, line8 becomes line5, 3 becomes 2 and so on. This is one of the edit I'm "correcting".

Another example is this(4th day of Fate route, Saber explains to Shirou something about Servants; if

I'm not mistaken, this is the scene which follows the choice "Not cooperate with Tohsaka"):

*page63|
"Yes. Summoning a true heroic spirit is already almost a miracle. To summon seven is too much even

for the Holy Grail.
As a solution, the Holy Grail prepared seven vessels in advance and only called forth heroic

spirits compatible with these vessels.
Those are the seven classes.
*page64|

*page63|
"Yes. Summoning a true heroic spirit is already almost a miracle. To summon seven is too much even

for the Holy Grail.
As a solution, the Holy Grail prepared seven vessels in advance and only called forth heroic

spirits compatible with these vessels. It prepared some avatars to allow us to exist in this world.
Those are the seven classes.
*page64|

"It prepared some avatars to allow us to exist in this world." This phrase exists in Japanese, but,

as you can see, not in English. Anyway, avatar is not the exact translation, which is something as

spirit container. Someone suggested me to translate it as avatar

Last example(yeah, I'm being too annoyingXD). It's from the first day of the prologue:

*page157|
"Well, lunch comes first."
I start on my tomato sandwich and hot lemon drink.
It's a simple lunch, but the taste is much improved in this peace and quiet.
*page158|
"[line5]Phew."
I finish my sandwich and my hot lemon drink.
...........
...........(it'd be useless to copy allXD)
(the "lunch is over" bell rings)
*page162|
"Oh, it's time already?"
I finish my hot lemon drink and stand up.
I should stop drowning in sentimentality and go back to being the usual Tohsaka Rin once I go down

the stairs[line4]
*page163|

"I finish my sandwich and my hot lemon drink." and "I finish my hot lemon drink and stand up."???

How is it possible? Rin said to have already finished her hot lemon drink!!

I checked the Japanese files and corrected in this way:
"I finish my sandwich and wet my lips with my hot lemon drink." and "I finish my hot lemon drink

and stand up."(this was ok). Why on heart "wet" became "finish".

Anyways, this is the type of mistakes I correct. Perhaps I exaggerated saying the are enormous and i

ask for been apologized for that, but you can't imagine what pain in the back is to check everything

and (nearly) re-translate the most part of the scenes. Unfortunaly, I can't entirely tranlstae from

Japanese and I have to continue doing this..

Ah, it's true! Another something I'm "correcting" is the [ruby text] code. This code appeared in

Japanese, but it was totally erased in English. This is the code which insert furigana over the

kanjis(for whom who don't know, most kanjis has got several pronunciations; furigana is a

"translation" in another "alphabet" of the exact pronunciation). Yes, it seems that basically an

English translation doesn't need that code, but often Nasu uses that code to say two things(usually

different) simultaneously, not giving the pronunciation of the kanjis. My intent is to re-insert all

the ruby text codes which are used in this way.

Here is an example:
[spoil][/spoil]

I hope my examples are enough^^
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  #6  
Old 2009-09-16, 05:50
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Please make your posts readable. You can start with removing spaces between lines.
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  #7  
Old 2009-09-16, 07:04
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I second LoSs's opinion.
And:
Darkness cannot be bright.
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  #8  
Old 2009-09-16, 10:14
arkady18 arkady18 is offline
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Quote:
Darkness cannot be bright.
It's exactly this the point! We're speaking about Nasu, remember!
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  #9  
Old 2009-09-16, 11:48
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Let's nitpick one of your changes, shall we.

No, the sound before me is heavier than steel. --> No, the sound landed(*) before my very eyes was really heavier even than iron.

First off, the phrase "landed before my very eyes" is complete grammatical nonsense in English - not to mention the fact that you're using it to refer to a fucking sound. You seem to have admitted that you're not sure about this one, so here's a point of advice: Sometimes Japanese phrases have English equivalents that do not involve mindlessly picking out the literal dictionary definition of every word in them. Yours is far worse of a "mistranslation" than TakaJun's, simply because it fails to make sense in English.

Also, "really heavier" is grammatical nonsense as well, and, as such, I would categorize it as a "mistranslation."

And you know what the funny part of this is? There most likely are mistranslations in Fate/stay night, perhaps even numerous ones. It's, as far as I know, the longest piece of Japanese writing ever translated into English - and, if not, certainly the longest piece of Japanese writing ever fan translated into English - so errors are to be expected due to the sheer length of the piece, if nothing else.

But you. You don't even know what a mistranslation is. A mistranslation is a line that fails to capture the meaning or intent of the original in any way, shape, or form, not a line that doesn't use 100% literal equivalents of every damn verb.

Study both Japanese and the art of translation before you start talking shit.
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  #10  
Old 2009-09-17, 02:40
arkady18 arkady18 is offline
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Quote:
Let's nitpick one of your changes, shall we.
OK, I have nothing against critics. They're (nearly) always a good thing. At least, according to me.

Now, let's discuss about this.
Quote:
No, the sound before me is heavier than steel. --> No, the sound landed(*) before my very eyes was really heavier even than iron.
You're exactly right on this, but remember that I'm not an English native speaker, so I don't always know when something is to consider grammatical in English. So, I guessed that I had not to "translate" form Jap to Eng, but to litteraly translate, to make you understand what Jap version exactly says in comparison to the English one. I know by myself that it's kind of meaningless what I translated, but I couldn't hope to translate well. That is not neither the way I translated that phrase in Italian to begin with. I translated approximately in this way:
No, the sound landed before me was heavier even than iron.
As I said, I'm not sure about landed. But just hear what happen in game:
The 2nd page starts with a sound of shining: in this point I provisonally re-inserted the onomatopeia *sharan*. I don't know if this word is the Japanese for clang. Now that I'm writing, I re-heard it and I heard that the shining ends with a clang. So for this I admit I did wrong. I honestly apologize for that. I don't know why the last time I didn't heard the clang. But, I have still to re-read my "correction" in-game, something I haven't done yet since I've not finished yet.
Then, we have the phrase "No, the sound before me is heavier than steel"
That landed I inserted, according to me, is suited to that shining metal sound which ends with a clang. The author is referring to the fact that the sound is landed. Like I said in my previous post, that verb exactly means to go down and stand. And it's exactly what, for me, that sound means: Saber, who had attacked Lancer, went down and stood up. So "the sound which lands" is an indirect reference to the person who made that sound. Now, perhaps I don't know English, but in Italian this phrase have a meaning.
"is heavier than steel" and "was really heavier even than iron.".
Yes, I hate literal translation more than you. But, let me explain why I did like that.
1.As I said before, not being an English native speaker, I don't know what's grammatically correct and what not. So I preferred to translate literally, when I can: I know, perhaps, better than you that is wrong to translate literally. If you want to now, I'm already studing "the art of translation". In the end-of-course exam of the last year I got 28/30 as score in translation into Italian (for now, we didn't translation into English or into Japanese), so I don't think that I don't know anything about how to translate. Yes, I have still to improve, but I know at least that is useless to pick a dictionary and translate word by word a text: in this way, google's translator maybe far better than me^^
2.about "A mistranslation is a line that fails to capture the meaning or intent of the original in any way, shape, or form, not a line that doesn't use 100% literal equivalents of every damn verb": I don't think you can object if I replace steel with iron, if in Japanese is written 鉄(iron) and not 鋼 (steel). Some lines after, I left steel, because it was in the Japanese version as well(in this regards, almost every time appears the word iron in Japanese, TakaJun translated "steel", "metal" or erased it; only sometimes he left iron)
3."really heavier": in Italian I erased really. As an Italian I could say "really" doesn't sound well in this context, but I didn't know about what an English could say.
Don't think I just randomly put correction here and there. Ok?
Anyways, I didn't intend to insult anyone: just declaring what I thought. But you didn't just say to me, "Be careful! You're getting wrong. According to me, you're saying something totally stupid, acting like one who actually knows Japanese". I can accept such a critic. But with this
Quote:
But you. You don't even know what a mistranslation is. A mistranslation is a line that fails to capture the meaning or intent of the original in any way, shape, or form, not a line that doesn't use 100% literal equivalents of every damn verb.

Study both Japanese and the art of translation before you start talking shit.
Have you ever considered that
Quote:
Now, I understand well English, but, as you can see, I'm not too able to speak it correctly: forgive me if my translations are not grammatically correctXD
I wrote down?
If you want to keep criticize, enjoy: tell whatever you want, but at least please don't insult anyone. Try to ask explaination before, if you want.^^
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  #11  
Old 2009-09-17, 08:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkady18 View Post
2.about "A mistranslation is a line that fails to capture the meaning or intent of the original in any way, shape, or form, not a line that doesn't use 100% literal equivalents of every damn verb": I don't think you can object if I replace steel with iron, if in Japanese is written 鉄(iron) and not 鋼 (steel). Some lines after, I left steel, because it was in the Japanese version as well(in this regards, almost every time appears the word iron in Japanese, TakaJun translated "steel", "metal" or erased it; only sometimes he left iron)
It depends on whether the original writer meant iron literally, or simply used iron to indicate a tough/heavy metal, etc. What you are doing is simply looking at whether words have been translated literally or not. This is *not* the correct way to translate. Translation is not some mechanical process where you replace words with their equivalents in the target language. Translation is an art where you *rewrite* the entire work in the target language, making sure that the actual *meaning* of the final work is as close to the original as possible.
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Old 2009-09-17, 11:37
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Quote:
It depends on whether the original writer meant iron literally, or simply used iron to indicate a tough/heavy metal, etc. What you are doing is simply looking at whether words have been translated literally or not. This is *not* the correct way to translate. Translation is not some mechanical process where you replace words with their equivalents in the target language. Translation is an art where you *rewrite* the entire work in the target language, making sure that the actual *meaning* of the final work is as close to the original as possible.
I do know this, but I'm afraid I gave you all a bad impression of what I'm doing. Like I said before, I'm not coreccting words ramdomly. What I posted here is just an example of the difference between Japanese and English version. I just wanted to show, not to translate: as you can read, my English is not very good and I can't expect to be treated like a proper English translator.
However, it's not like I'm only searching what words are considered by the English version and what not. I just gave an example. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a more appropriate example to show you. If I find, I'll post it, even though we're a bit off-topic, since this topic were originally meant to solve a problem, noit to speak about my pseudo-correction...
Anyway, these corrections I put are not actual corrections. Let me explain. I'm basically translating from English, but, originally, that was a Japanese work of fiction. You said:
Quote:
ranslation is an art where you *rewrite* the entire work in the target language, making sure that the actual *meaning* of the final work is as close to the original as possible.
So, why couldn't I try to get as close as possible to the original language instead of to the English language? I don't think it's a bad think, also because doing so I'm learning much more Japanese than while studing at school.
And, please do not misunderstand me: I've nothing to criticize against TakaJun's work. No, like I said him when I asked the permission to translate off his work, I'm very grateful to him, since 1. I owe the 95% of what I know about English to F/SN English version as I haven't ever had (till I entered the university) a proper English teacher (no, my high school teacher didn't even know English... It's not a joke, unfortunately...) 2. I owe him my new passion for Japanese language (if I didn't read F/SN, I most likely would never study Japanese).
Well, I guess I said this before: it's not like I don't like his translation, but some of his choices.
Perhaps, my correction are not always good, but if I'm sure that what I'm translating from English is not correct, do I have to just blindly translate keeping what I consider an error?
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Old 2009-09-17, 22:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkady18 View Post
So, why couldn't I try to get as close as possible to the original language instead of to the English language? I don't think it's a bad think, also because doing so I'm learning much more Japanese than while studing at school.
It's because it is really easy for someone who is beginning to learn Japanese to misjudge one's own abilities and misinterpret something. This is what I consider "knowing too much Japanese [for one's own good]." Symptoms often include a blind adherence to literalism.
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  #14  
Old 2009-09-18, 02:23
arkady18 arkady18 is offline
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Perhaps, I didn't explain myself well.
I just wanted to say that I found something I believed bad-translated (and sometimes not translated at all) and want to "correct" with my bad Japanese. Of course I don't "correct" something I'm not sure about. And I don't translate literally. I search what is "bad-translated" for me, try to "translate well" and ponder about "why did TakaJun translate in that way?"; if I find a convincent solution, I leave that line like in English; if not, I try to "improve" it, but not going too far.
Ayways, I think that I don't have
Quote:
Symptoms often include a blind adherence to literalism.
Like I just wanted to said, I first try to make a literal translation, then I improve it and it stops to be literal. But I couldn't show in English this last part, since I'm inexperienxced in writing in English.
I showed someone some of my "corrected" translations and they have said they are good quality; a guy, who has already read the English version, said that my translation is a little better than the English version.
Unfortunately, I can't show you, since you're likely to don't know Italian.
If someday I'll translate something in English(I ever, it'll take still some yearsXD), I'll invite you to read and to criticize that. Would you like to? For now, my English is too bad to show you something.
Anyway, let's go back to the main topic.
Does anyone knows a solution?
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  #15  
Old 2009-09-18, 03:42
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You are completely mistaken. Everywhere. And I'm too lazy to explain why.
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