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General Discussion Theres a Clannad of AIR-headed Kanon fodder being shot by the Little Busters After Tomoyo on a Planet-arian.

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  #1231  
Old 2009-12-02, 18:56
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Nor does it help to dispel the notion that gaijin pirate all the eroge they play - and this is more important than you think. For years eroge companies have been extremely hesitant about bringing titles overseas for these and other reasons - a market is worthless if everyone in it pirates games.
But it's true that everyone pirates their games (or CGs, if you prefer). Why pretend like it isn't? There is no overseas market to speak of and most likely never will be. More people pirate JAST and Mangagamer releases than buy them too. If you want to make money, you do not try to sell to gaijin.

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There's multiple VN communities, and I'd like to think they aren't all solely composed of people who aren't willing to pay for anything.
Those who buy are in the insignificant minority. Just like fansubs and DVDs, doujinshi, anime opening singles, or Megami magazine scans. Western fandom, regardless of the media, is composed largely of pirates.

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Also, this statement involves a logical fallacy - piracy is okay because everyone pirates? What?
The morality of it is irrelevant. It exists. Whether or not you approve of it has no bearing on that fact. Creating a separate patch as opposed to NNL's choice will have no effect on that. Anyone who thinks illegal fan patches don't encourage piracy are fooling themselves.
  #1232  
Old 2009-12-02, 19:58
Ae772 Ae772 is offline
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Ugh, this makes me wonder why they're licensing VNs that have loli content if they can't release it without taking stuff out? =/
Because other than that 1% offending content, the remaining 99% is good and it has a good chance to make money in the western market?

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It's only now that we've got partnerships with high-profile studios like Nitroplus, and if NNL manage to destroy this from nothing more high-minded than frustration with minori's region checking, well, it would be pretty sad.
Staying away from the rest of this moralfaggotry versus self-justifying-rationalization;

what's really sad is if something like this could so easily "destroy" this "partnership". If the "partnership" was indeed this weak, then perhaps it's not meant to be around at all.
(Not to mention there are no partnerships or plans for partnerships with Minori anyways (not that there will likely be any time soon, or ever), so your point is moot unless NNL starts releasing standalones of Nitro+ titles or something.)
  #1233  
Old 2009-12-02, 20:14
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what's really sad is if something like this could so easily "destroy" this "partnership". If the "partnership" was indeed this weak, then perhaps it's not meant to be around at all.
(Not to mention there are no partnerships or plans for partnerships with Minori anyways (not that there will likely be any time soon, or ever), so your point is moot unless NNL starts releasing standalones of Nitro+ titles or something.)
Wasn't referring to Nitroplus specifically - I'm referring to the general relationship between the Japanese eroge studios and the Western eroge gamers, from which such partnerships are made possible.

If the choice was between releasing a patch or a standalone (this was the choice available to NNL, as they said on their website), regardless of the overall effectiveness, which one do you think would be better in the long term for building an amicable relationship with the eroge studios?
  #1234  
Old 2009-12-02, 21:12
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Enerccio Enerccio is offline
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Is it really that hard to believe anyone would be willing to pay 9,240円 for an eroge?
Yes. Even in japan, it's huge amount of money. They only put this high price because they know the Japanese otaku WILL buy it (poor parents....).
But over 90$ for a game is way too much overpriced, specially if you need to add shipping costs and everything. Just compare it to western games, which are generally 50$ or less, and having much HIGHER making costs than general eroge.

I am supporting NNL, because they have logic in their way. If anime can go out as a full vid, instead of just subs for DVDs, then the same apply here.
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  #1235  
Old 2009-12-02, 23:41
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But over 90$ for a game is way too much overpriced, specially if you need to add shipping costs and everything. Just compare it to western games, which are generally 50$ or less, and having much HIGHER making costs than general eroge.
Actually, most video games sell for about $70-80 in Japan. Final Fantasy XIII is available on Sofmap for ¥8300 (~$94.89), Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 for Xbox360 sells at sofmap for ¥7180 (~$82.08), and when I bought my copy of Agarest Senki (a year after release) it was ¥6270 (~$71.67). In short, the price for eroge in the Japanese market really isn't much different from the price for regular video games there either.

I've discussed this difference in the market with MangaGamer already. That's why you've noticed recent games available for around 35.95 Euros (Approximately $55.60--right about where American video game prices fall). They are trying to compromise with the American market, but like it or not, eroge are still video games too. Just like you shouldn't expect to get Star Ocean or GTA for free, you shouldn't expect to get eroge for free either.
  #1236  
Old 2009-12-03, 06:26
ImmLff ImmLff is offline
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Due to uncontrollable issues, a part of the CGs in the original work could not be included.
It is time to RAGE, but honestly I'm too tired of all these and don't want to waste my time on the matter. So I will simply ignore this release, same as I've done before with other mangagamer releases.

This whole "commercial vn translations" thing is a big disappointment.

Added: I've changed my mind, it is really time to RAGE.

Last edited by ImmLff; 2009-12-04 at 12:24. Reason: update
  #1237  
Old 2009-12-03, 09:37
Ae772 Ae772 is offline
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Wasn't referring to Nitroplus specifically - I'm referring to the general relationship between the Japanese eroge studios and the Western eroge gamers, from which such partnerships are made possible.

If the choice was between releasing a patch or a standalone (this was the choice available to NNL, as they said on their website), regardless of the overall effectiveness, which one do you think would be better in the long term for building an amicable relationship with the eroge studios?
I know you weren't referring to anyone in particular, I just used Nitro+ as an example.

Also, I think both impact the relationship. However, as neither of these effects can be quantifiably measured (or, if they can, there has been no published effort to do so), there is no basis for you to use to make a comparison.

Taking it one step further, you won't even know if the net impact on this "relationship" is positive or negative by either course of action. If we assume gain/loss of profits to be a direct indicator of "positive/negative relationship effect" (which is what you seem to be getting at):

Downloads do not directly equate to sale losses, since many downloaders would never buy the games even IF they could not download it. However any sale of the game to a customer as a result of said game becoming available in a language s/he understands is a gain.

(i.e. there could be 500 downloads due to the release of a standalone client, and 9 actual buyers. However 496 of these downloaders would opt to go find some other game instead if there was no way to obtain the game in a language they could understand. 4 people actually had every intention of buying the game, but did not since a standalone client was readily available. So that leads to a sales loss = 4, sales gain = 9. Net sales = +5.)

Of course, the case could easily be reversed. But you do not have access to any data to prove either case, and we have even less indication of what the official companies think of this (they may evaluate things by different criteria).

Besides, if you're really all that concerned about this "amicable relationship", then you should be against all translation projects that do not come from official licenses. They are equally illegal and accomplish the same things, so their impacts are similar. If you support patches in the name of the industry, then you are being a hypocrite. Basically you are saying "Don't shoot it in the face, aim for the legs instead."

You can make conjectures on what effects this may or may not have, but then again "experts" predicted that the Dreamcast would kill the PS, and here we are, 2009, and we all know what happened there.

Correlation does not imply causation, not to mention that in this case, you can't even make any definitive gesture regarding correlation.

At the end of the day; is pirating wrong? In the general, broadest sense of the term (Wrong), yes.

Is it bad for the industry? Well, 20 years of fansubs and anime is more popular than ever, so if you want to make conjectures, that would be a good indication of "no".

Unless you're Minori or a company negotiating rights with Minori and your profits are being harmed by NNL's actions; you have no right and no basis to complain about what they're doing = harming the industry

You can say that it's morally and legally wrong, yes; but don't bring unproven and unrelated guesses into the equation.

Last edited by Ae772; 2009-12-03 at 09:39.
  #1238  
Old 2009-12-03, 10:49
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I've discussed this difference in the market with MangaGamer already.
Could you try talking about the Soul Link thing too? Or just ask they did it, there's been a theory that Navel asked for the CGs to be removed.
If that really is the case, I might still buy it. After all this censoring wouldn't be MangaGamer's fault then.
  #1239  
Old 2009-12-03, 12:10
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Originally Posted by kouryuu View Post
Actually, most video games sell for about $70-80 in Japan. Final Fantasy XIII is available on Sofmap for ¥8300 (~$94.89), Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 for Xbox360 sells at sofmap for ¥7180 (~$82.08), and when I bought my copy of Agarest Senki (a year after release) it was ¥6270 (~$71.67). In short, the price for eroge in the Japanese market really isn't much different from the price for regular video games there either.

I've discussed this difference in the market with MangaGamer already. That's why you've noticed recent games available for around 35.95 Euros (Approximately $55.60--right about where American video game prices fall). They are trying to compromise with the American market, but like it or not, eroge are still video games too. Just like you shouldn't expect to get Star Ocean or GTA for free, you shouldn't expect to get eroge for free either.
Could you please take 3 more things into consideration:
1. First of all, their games are download only. Look what japanese eroge download sites charge for their games. The prices are generally around 3000¥.
2. Furthermore their releases aren't new and shiny anymore, reading "old of age". The only exception they had in my opinion was KiraKira, since it was and is the newest translated game ever in the english speaking commercial eroge market. (And on top of that it was rather cheap compared to Da Capo!)
3. And, last but not least: the translation is of "not so good" quality, but hopefully this could change with your translations :)

I think their games should really be somewhere in the price range japanese sites charge, unless they can't provide a way to sell boxed games. This means 3000¥, currently converted to 22,50 €, as of 12 December 2009. Well, that sounds pretty harsh, maybe 30 € would be okay too. But 50 € for Suika, a 7(!) year old game is plainly just way over the top. By the way, if they would release Deardrops simultaneously on the english and japanese market, I would hold no objections towards a 50 € pricetag.

Nevertheless I will probably end up buying most of their games just to support the industry, but I've somehow got the feeling my point of view does not represent the average english eroge player (hint @ hongfire et. al.).

Kind regards from the other side of the ocean ^^
  #1240  
Old 2009-12-03, 21:00
DarkFusion DarkFusion is offline
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According to EvoSpace:

"I will post the situation with them here because its taking them too long to simply update the news.
(They are currently running around in a frenzy trying to put Higurashi into shape so I can't blame them... >.<)

The CGs removed are indeed Nanami's. A total of 6.
It was decided in their last meeting that they will remove CGs showing arguably underaged characters naked out of the games. Of course the most threatening is the United States child pornography law, but they are dealing with the world here.
There will be an actual person who will be imprisoned if this goes in the wrong way, and surely affect their future releases, and worst case this whole project will be gone. It is a risk they couldn't take and it was a difficult decision for them as well.

Of course, no part of the storyline will be removed. Also, since it is difficult to go back and fix games that were already released for fairness's sake, they are just doing this to their future releases.

At least they are telling us ahead of time before you make the purchase.
As for now, that's all I can say..."

t looks like this has come true (0:08 to 0:30):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_txA3zf94I

If this is true, just how much of Koihime Musou is going to be censored?
  #1241  
Old 2009-12-03, 22:04
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I'm just about to give up on them. I loved the fact that Visual Novels were being translated and sold in America. I wanted to support them from the bottom of my heart... but I just can't when shit like this happens... If they are going to pull this bull then they shouldn't have licensed Soul Link to begin with. Also, Koihime Musou is filled with so much loli that I'm not even sure what they will be doing there. I hope, since the release has yet to be finalized, that they will revoke their decision and keep the already limited circle of consumers that they have, me included.
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  #1242  
Old 2009-12-03, 22:08
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I'm just about to give up on them. I loved the fact that Visual Novels were being translated and sold in America. I wanted to support them from the bottom of my heart... but I just can't when shit like this happens... If they are going to pull this bull then they shouldn't have licensed Soul Link to begin with. Also, Koihime Musou is filled with so much loli that I'm not even sure what they will be doing there. I hope, since the release has yet to be finalized, that they will revoke their decision and keep the already limited circle of consumers that they have, me included.
Maybe you should contact them and offer to act as a scapegoat to get thrown into jail instead, in exchange for them releasing Soul Link and Koihime Musou uncensored.
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Last edited by Asceai; 2009-12-03 at 22:25.
  #1243  
Old 2009-12-03, 22:15
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Then you'd rather not have good titles released at all? That's a bit counter productive...
  #1244  
Old 2009-12-03, 22:31
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Heh, I'm just another flaming concerned consumer. I know their plight but believe that they should have been prepared for it when they decided to do Visual Novel translations and the fact that they licensed some of those games to begin with. I would much rather play the games in Japanese.
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  #1245  
Old 2009-12-03, 22:57
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Personally, I really don't think that them removing the CGs is a big enough deal to not buy the game. It's not like they're doing this to spite their customers; they're genuinely concerned that using those images will get them or their customers in legal trouble. In the UK, Canada, and US at least, loli is either definitely illegal or iffy. It's probably a better business decision to be safe and lose a few stubborn customers than to risk getting thrown in jail. Plus, it's not like they're removing parts of the script or anything. If someone really needs to see a naked loli to fully enjoy the game, they can just download the HCGs. Nobody likes censorship, but they're not just doing it to avoid offending people like in many instances, they're just supposedly dodging a bullet.
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