Bad news for all of us

[Asceai]

Originally Posted by Endless

As to why rape and incest should be censored, let me ask you some questions. Have you been raped? Do you understand the psychological trauma inflicted on victims of rape? If another man raped you and you read something which said rape victims brought it on themselves, wanted to be raped or that it was to some extent okay given the circumstances how would you feel? Think of the victims, or their families; how are they supposed to feel when they see an image or piece of writing glorifying rape or incest?

THEN WHY ARE THESE VICTIMS AND THEIR FAMILIES BUYING AND PLAYING THESE RAPE EROGES IN THE FIRST PLACE?

The point is that people should be able to watch or read what they want to. You're saying we should ban this stuff because the possibility exists for them to stumble upon it? Give me a break! What else would you extend this to? Banning cars because children shouldn't be driving them?

[KoiNoDensetsu]

Originally Posted by Endless

I never gave any views regarding violence or murder in my post. I was writing in regards to the glorification of rape/incest in some forms of media, in this case visual novels. In fact I do believe that violence of all kinds over-saturates today’s media and has been in many cases glorified. Do I agree with this? No. But that is a separate subject. A ‘well we glorify murder in the media, why not rape and incest?’ argument is the fundamentally flawed juxtaposition of two separate issues (i.e. arguing apples and oranges - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_and_oranges).

As to why rape and incest should be censored, let me ask you some questions. Have you been raped? Do you understand the psychological trauma inflicted on victims of rape? If another man raped you and you read something which said rape victims brought it on themselves, wanted to be raped or that it was to some extent okay given the circumstances how would you feel? Think of the victims, or their families; how are they supposed to feel when they see an image or piece of writing glorifying rape or incest?

With that argument, you could say it's okay to censor anything that is harmful to society. Are you saying we should also have scenes where characters aren't nice to each other be censored because not everyone in the world is nice? There will always be things in the media which aren't particularly the way things would be in a perfect world. (and the fact is, people will always rape/murder/etc. regardless of what is shown in media. The same things have been happening for hundreds of years, before the first television was created.) If that wasn't true, the only movies that would be shown in theaters would be G-rated moral fests for young children.

I’m not talking about taking an iron wall approach to censorship. I’m arguing only about censoring media that glorifies rape and incest. I am not talking about a censorship of the topics themselves, merely of media which vindicates/idolises the cruel practice of raping another human being.

That contradicts what you said earlier about how this has nothing to do with saying it's not okay to censor murder, but only rape and incest.

In my opinion it would send a message to rapists and would-be rapists that civilised society will not tolerate inhumanity towards each other. It would send a message to victims that it is never their fault and that society condemns such acts committed against them. That rape is never okay and never justifiable.

Give me an eroge that actually does clearly state rape is an acceptable part in society. RapeLay has two endings: one where the main character (rapist) is stabbed, another where he is thrown into a train track. Most of these eroge have brutal endings for the rapists.

Furthermore to the poster of “So you would rather that I rape real life people, than playing rape visual novels. Good idea!”, I’ll say the following. No. I would rather you see a professional in the form of a psychologist/physiatrist, before I see another person ruined by rape/incest/sexual violence. If after that you still can’t control the urge to destroy another human being, well I just hope fate does humanity a favour and you slip on some soap hitting the floor neck first.

By this point, I was definitely starting to think you were a troll...
He never said he was going to rape anyone. -_- Stop coming to ridiculous conclusions.

Asceai you totally missed my point. My point is that such works (ie. visual novels) make light of the tragic event of rape and therefore shouldn’t be acceptable in a humanitarian society, ----> regardless <---- of who reads it.

KoiNoDensetsu obviously you have not read both of my two earlier posts as I have not contradicted myself I have stated my reasoning behind my ideas. If you care to respond to my ideas in whole, feel free to point out the contradiction if you can. However as you are obviously a connoisseur of rape games I feel you probably can’t understand my ideals.

Calling me a troll is that your idea of silencing ideas which clash with your own. How about you tell me why media glorifying/vindicating rape/incest should not be censored? Come on just try and defend that position if you can.

Furthermore as to my response to the anonymous poster which obviously struck a nerve with you. I wasn’t coming to any conclusions, just responding to a ridiculous argument in kind. Responding to a censorship argument with threats like ‘would you rather I go out and rape someone’ is ridiculous and I answered in kind.

[UBW]

Originally Posted by Endless

Asceai you totally missed my point. My point is that such works (ie. visual novels) make light of the tragic event of rape and therefore shouldn’t be acceptable in a humanitarian society, ----> regardless <---- of who reads it.

KoiNoDensetsu obviously you have not read both of my two earlier posts as I have not contradicted myself I have stated my reasoning behind my ideas. If you care to respond to my ideas in whole, feel free to point out the contradiction if you can. However as you are obviously a connoisseur of rape games I feel you probably can’t understand my ideals.

Calling me a troll is that your idea of silencing ideas which clash with your own. How about you tell me why media glorifying/vindicating rape/incest should not be censored? Come on just try and defend that position if you can.

Furthermore as to my response to the anonymous poster which obviously struck a nerve with you. I wasn’t coming to any conclusions, just responding to a ridiculous argument in kind. Responding to a censorship argument with threats like ‘would you rather I go out and rape someone’ is ridiculous and I answered in kind.

I would highly recommend that you read the following
http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/1...ky-speech.html


Also, I would like to just point out that there is an extreme amount of irony in your statement "Calling me a troll is that your idea of silencing ideas which clash with your own. How about you tell me why media glorifying/vindicating rape/incest should not be censored?" Censorship by content, by it's very nature, is "silencing ideas which clash with your own"

[KoiNoDensetsu]

Originally Posted by Endless

KoiNoDensetsu obviously you have not read both of my two earlier posts

Obviously, I have, as I replied to almost every paragraph in your second post.

as I have not contradicted myself I have stated my reasoning behind my ideas.

You stated you never said anything about only censoring rape and incest while saying violence is okay. You then say you only think censorship should apply to rape and incest. How isn't this contradictory?

If you care to respond to my ideas in whole, feel free to point out the contradiction if you can.

I can. :P

However as you are obviously a connoisseur of rape games I feel you probably can’t understand my ideals.

Sorry, I'm no rape game connoisseur. I tried Virgin Roster and Tsuki. I was disgusted. I then tried RapeLay. I was even more disgusted. However, this doesn't mean I think RapeLay should be banned simply because it wasn't my thing. Saying that someone with a different opinion can never understand the other side is ridiculous. If that were true, what would be the point of debates? (and why are you even responding to any of our posts?)
For instance, I think that discriminating against gay people is wrong and shouldn't have a place in today's society. However, that doesn't mean I can't understand those that are against gay marriage.

Calling me a troll is that your idea of silencing ideas which clash with your own.

Nope. It's just my way of saying that it's hard to believe that this is your actual opinion after you contradict your posts and then continue to defend yourself.
Fine then. You are either: A. a troll. or B. an outraged Equality Now advocate who won't even try to see the other side of a discussion.

How about you tell me why media glorifying/vindicating rape/incest should not be censored?

Because no one is getting hurt from it and censorship almost always results in problems. If rape eroge is censored, how can we say eroge in general won't suddenly be censored as well? Other things that even you probably like could get censored.

Come on just try and defend that position if you can.

I can. O_O

Furthermore as to my response to the anonymous poster which obviously struck a nerve with you. I wasn’t coming to any conclusions, just responding to a ridiculous argument in kind. Responding to a censorship argument with threats like ‘would you rather I go out and rape someone’ is ridiculous and I answered in kind.

Re-read the above sentences. That's what the anonymous guy was trying to say.
(and LOL at your post "striking a nerve" with me. XD If anything, you are the one that seems to be getting angered by this discussion.)

[zalas]

I just woke up and I'm a bit sleepy, but let me see if I get the gist of Endless's posts:
Games that contain rape and sexual violence and does not portray them negatively should be banned because it will cause its audience to be desensitized to the seriousness of rape.
I wonder if the solution is to produce a game that puts rape in such a negative light that no one who plays it would ever contemplate rape...

[Ae772]

Endless:
>Asceai you totally missed my point. My point is that such works (ie. visual novels) make light of the tragic event of rape and therefore shouldn’t be acceptable in a humanitarian society, ----> regardless <---- of who reads it.

Can I take this as you explicitly stating that to be your "point"?

In this case, there was nothing wrong in juxtaposing glorification of violence alongside rape. It is also making light of a tragic event, and "therefore shouldn't be acceptable in a humanitarian society".

Let's see, going by that:
Depictions of running water, floods, et al which do not show the seriousness of floods can upset flood survivors by making light of a tragic event, "and therefore shouldn’t be acceptable in a humanitarian society".

Depictions of fire, open flames, et al which do not show the seriousness of fires destroying houses and lives can upset fire survivors by making light of a tragic event, "and therefore shouldn’t be acceptable in a humanitarian society".

Extending from there: Earthquakes, theft, armed robbery, battery, assault, tsunamis, bankruptcy, suicides, war stories, anything Nazi related, and 99% of jokes that every comedian has in his/her arsenal should all be censored.

anything that attempts to undermine the seriousness of everyday life should be censored.

Is that your standpoint?

If it is not, please explain why rape alone is a special case. I really do not understand where you're coming from. The only easy conclusion to reach is personal hypocrisy.

The anti-censorship people are raising points that "nothing should be censored", because it doesn't help issues, and who knows where it can go from this? (I feel that you are ignoring this argument completely saying "other issues are other subjects, I am only talking about rape".)

Rape today, and in 20 years from now all forms of media are only allowed to contain puppies and sunshine.

[JRaiKetchum]

*sigh*

1. I'm sorry if I came off offensive in anything I said, I just can't stand stupidity to this highest level. As if this stupid UN thing would pass. UN is worse than US congress in getting things to pass.

2. I believe that Sociology and Politics do NOT mix with anything that is outside their realms, as all it does is stir up a heap load of shit and trouble. (cf: Wind debacle of '08).

3. And finally, yes, I believe in the use of sexual violence as a story element, it's when it is glorified as if promoting it is when I say it's wrong. I was never suggesting to get rid of games with elements of rape altogether. That would be like taking a bazooka to kill a fly. Moderation is the key, not elimination.

*picks up a dewar of Liquid Nitrogen, throws it on the floor and disappears*

-Rai

I want my rape games.
Wether they are glorifying it or not.

As long as I do nothing to harm other people, it is MY decision.
It's as ridiclious as saying "we have to protect our children, that's why we ban lolicon."
I harm nobody.
It is MY decision.
Until it is proven, that rape/lolicon games harm real life people every day, it's only your personal opinion, that you, of course, are allowed to speak out, but not something that should be passed.

BTW: If it is proved that rape/lolicon games make you a rapist or a child fucker, I will stop playing them, I swear!

[NTX]

Originally Posted by Endless

I’m not talking about taking an iron wall approach to censorship. I’m arguing only about censoring media that glorifies rape and incest. I am not talking about a censorship of the topics themselves, merely of media which vindicates/idolises the cruel practice of raping another human being.

Yet they're blocking every usage of rape, whether it be idolizing or condemning it. Not every rape scene in a visual novel shows it in a great light. In the end, visual novels are just another medium to tell a story. Try telling the authors of the world that they couldn't write about violence anymore. I'll grab my torch and pitch fork and lead the mob to the steps of the UN myself.

[Asceai]

Well, the thing about the UN is that they're actually pretty useless, and the main body of the UN doesn't care about this at all in the first place.

If the UN was able to wave a magical wand and fix all the perceived evils in the world, they'd be able to stop real child abuse in many countries (which they are actively trying to do).

[Magedark]

That's more than likely true.
(Wasn't it Parliament before he switched it to UN?)
The UN have better things to try and fix.

[NTX]

Originally Posted by Magedark

That's more than likely true.
(Wasn't it Parliament before he switched it to UN?)
The UN have better things to try and fix.

I edited it to Parliament to UN, the former is Canada only yet I mentioned authors of the world. Just trying to be consistent D:

[UBW]

Originally Posted by JRaiKetchum

3. And finally, yes, I believe in the use of sexual violence as a story element, it's when it is glorified as if promoting it is when I say it's wrong. I was never suggesting to get rid of games with elements of rape altogether. That would be like taking a bazooka to kill a fly. Moderation is the key, not elimination.

You can defend both, or choose neither, if "rape glorification" games were banned, rape in other works would also be effected.

From the linked article, a great way of saying that

The Law is a blunt instrument. It's not a scalpel. It's a club. If there is something you consider indefensible, and there is something you consider defensible, and the same laws can take them both out, you are going to find yourself defending the indefensible.

Also, I am currently playing Sengoku Rance, it glorifies rape at times, however it is also an awesome game. This game how ever is not going to turn anyone into a rapist. Do you feel that there is a problem with people playing this game? I for one would not be happy if games such as this were banned because specific groups of people, who wouldn't play it anyway, lie or mislead governments into saying that it's very existence is harmful.

zalas summed up my position on the situation. I will admit I am overly emotionally charged when it comes to this issue as I have had family members who have been affected. Truthfully it makes me despair to think I can do nothing to change what has happened and so I content myself with arguing with people about the seriousness of such crimes and their impact. For me I guess it is one way in which I come to grips with my feelings on the issue.

Having taken a breath I can see that my arguments have been tempered with emotion and therefore may not be entirely objective. I suppose I just want something to change regarding this issue, I feel like not enough is done to prevent such crimes from occurring; and want everyone to realise how badly sexually based crimes can ruin a person. I will take my leave on this discussion, but first I should apologise for the heavy-handed nature of my arguments and for slipping into personal attacks; I am sorry for that.