Piracy flaming goes here

[zalas]

Originally Posted by stranger_offline

How can someone who downloaded a digital copy of a product that s/he a) never had money to buy b) never intended to buy c) even if he wanted to buy it they will never ship it to him. Be equal to someone sneaking into a theater or a train and occupying "physical space" that could have been sold to someone else?

What if there were tons of free space in the theater? :D That's the more apt comparison.

As for the milk scenario, now consider what happens if after a few times, the guy with the replicator doesn't get caught and/or doesn't feel guilty about it and then starts notifying other people of the possibility of this and gives them hints on how to easily get a replicator and that this sequence continues...

In any case, I guess it's really hard to draw analogies that match 100% in all the details.

[luckyovermind]

Basically, the rule of this world is that everyone work to keep each other alive. Let's say that kataoka san is working fulltime, now if nobody buy his eroges, who is going to pay for his rent and instant noodles? Even the nekoneko software went down, let's say some otaku wants to sell their scarlett on yahoo auction, now if nobody buy them, who is going to pay for the rent and instant noodles of these otakus who used to pay for tomo kataoka san's rent and instant noodles?

It's all about rent and instant noodles you see XD

That is why I've made a point of adding the assumption that you will get the "milk" but not the "packaging", and how many of you is willing to actually drink their milk from a "plastic" bag? And also spend the extra time of searching for the duplicator (assuming that each duplicator is a single use item) then spend time waiting for it to work? One of the weakness of downloading the pirated digital edition is that you might not get it a 2nd time when you feel like playing/watching the download in the future.

the rent and instance noodles are important, but you need to keep in mind that honest fans do exist and they do buy the packaging for the sake of keeping the packaging (and few mislead souls will buy them to support the developer (sorry had to say it ;-) ) ). But only if they like the product.... I mean how many of you is looking for "public abuse" kind of VN? If a "public abuse" VN doesn't sale, then I for one will not feel sorry when the developer (or even the animator) goes down, I am still surprised that they can find voice actresses for those titles!

And yes, if someone does tell everyone that the duplicator will get them the "same" milk for free and they go ahead and do it (which by the way but them in the group of people who have money but go ahead and duplicate). Then yes that is a lose of sale. But again why is Himeya still in business and is still selling if everyone is a pirate?

There's really something wrong here.... we are. Aren't we?

...sorry, can't keep the conversation in English, so i'll post my thoughts in Russian now (i'll translate this later, okay?).

Original:

Spoiler

Сравнение реальности и виртуально-цифрового пространства неправильно в принципе. Потому что у виртуальности не существует пределов.

Давайте порассуждаем в таком ключе: представьте, что переместились в виртуально-цифровой мир. Что это, в принципе, может для вас означать?

* Во-первых, теперь вы бессмертны.
* Во-вторых, вам не нужно питаться.
* В-третьих, вы можете перемещаться мгновенно, в любую точку этого мира.
* В четвёртых, чтобы вылечить зубы, или вернуть потерянные конечности, вам не нужен врач - достаточно лишь отрастить новые или, в прямом смысле, сменить аватар.
* И, самое главное, в пятых, вы можете быть клонированы неограниченное количество раз.

Ну что, почувствовали себя Агентом Смитом из Матрицы? :P

...теперь серьёзно.

Дело в том, что в самом принципе цифрового хранения и распространения информации заложена мина, на которую теперь дружно встают все, кто пытается зарабатывать на ней деньги. Вспомните те же SecuROM, StarForce и прочие "защиты". Что они делают? Эти защиты - ни что иное, как попытка привязать информацию к материи, к "особенностям строения" грошовой "пластиковой тушки", на которой они записаны.

Поэтому, запомните: когда вы переносите своё (или чужое) творение в цифровой мир, вы отпускаете его в свободное плавание, где плодиться и размножаться оно будет уже без вашего участия и какой-либо выгоды.

Я могу понять, когда мангака жалуется, что его работы без спроса тиражируют, особенно когда их выпускает он САМ, а не какое-то издательство. Я могу понять создателей додзинси, когда те трудятся в поте лица, недоедают, недосыпают (бедные студенты, что с них взять?), тратятся на CDVD-болванки, бумагу для лазерного принтера, а после лицезреют свои творения в торрент-сетях...

Но, я НЕ могу понять больших издателей, вроде Electronic Arts, когда те жалуются на пиратство их "качественной" продукции. Почему? Потому что продажная стоимость этой самой продукции ЗАВЫШЕНА В РАЗЫ, и не имеет ничего общего с себестоимостью полиграфии, материалов, а также человекочасов, затраченных на производство.

Знаю, это уже притча во языццах, но, задуывались ли вы, какова себестоимость Windows, в пересчёте на существующее количество пользователей? 0.0000001 цента! Тогда, объясните, почему Microsoft не делает систему бесплатной? Да потому что на пустом месте они зарабатывают безумно большие деньги и никогда не откажутся от столь лакомого "куска" пирога под названием "пользователи персональных компьютеров планеты Земля"!

Вы можете сколь угодно долго елозить тему пиратства, но правда лишь одна - информация не может быть платной, а все ограничения искусственны, и делаются лишь с одной целью - заработать деньги на пустом месте.

Comparing the reality and virtual-digital space is principally incorrect. Because there's no such a thing in virtuality called limits.

Please think in that way: imagine, that you've been transferred into virtual-digital world. What does it means for you in the first place?

* First, you're immortal now.
* Second, you do not need to eat.
* Third, you can do the space warps, into any point of the world.
* Forth, in order to heal your teeth, or to retrieve missing arm, leg or something else, you do not need an doctor - all you have to do is simply grow another one... or, literally, change the avatar.
* And, the most important, fifth, you can be cloned for infinite times.

So, are you getting some feel of Agent Smith from Matrix now, don't ya? :P

...now seriously.

The thing is, the whole principle of the digital storages and information transferrings is nuked, and now everybody are stepping on this mine hand-in-hand, especially when they're trying to make the money on it. Remember the SecuROM, StarForce and other "protections". What are they doing? Those protections - is nothing more than a try to tie the information and material, to the "structural traits" of the dirt & cheap "plastic carcass", which is written on it.

So, please remember one thing: when you're transferring yours (or somebody else's) creation into a digital world, you're letting it flow on it own, where it will be spawned and propagate without your concern nor any profit.

I can understand, when the mangaka complains about his works being copied without asking, especially when he produces and sells on his OWN. I can understand the doujin creators, when they're hard-working, lacking of eating, lacking of sleeping (poor guys students, what can they do?), buying the blank CDVD-discs and paper for laser printer on their own, and leaving the scene after the "leakage" into Torrents.

But, i CAN'T understand some "respectable" producers, like Electronic Arts, when they're complain about the piracy of their "AAA-class" production. Why? Because the selling price is HARDLY OVERRATED, and have no relation with the cost price of the polygraphy, materials, man-hours, and other production stuff.

I know, it's the same old story, but, did you ever thinked, how much the production of Windows costs to Microsoft right now (by taking each existant copy)? 0.0000001 cents! Then, explain, why the Microsoft don't makes the OS free of charge? Because they're making the impossible money, and it costs them nothing. That's why they'll never refuse to have such a sweet "piece of cake" called "PC users of the Planet Earth"!

You can rub against this piracy flaming as much as you like, but there's only one truth - information is nothing, and it always must be free (NO MATTER WHAT KIND OF INFORMATION IT IS). Every restriction is made for only the one thing - to make the money from nothing.

P.S. GreatSaintLouis, Asceai, i said i was sorry. ^_^; I'm in a bad shape right now, so it taken some time to translate (damn, freakin' headache).

[GreatSaintLouis]

Look, this discussion has already gotten asinine enough, but as the majority of people on this board speak English (conversely, I'd be surprised if more than a handful spoke/read Russian), let's at least keep the long posts in the board's de facto language. What's the point in writing a big post that nobody else can read? It could be a cake recipe for all I know.

[Asceai]

I'll have you know that seeing that post filled with Cyrillic characters just about made my day. This thread needs more of that. =p

[Enerccio]

Originally Posted by GreatSaintLouis

It could be a cake recipe for all I know.

CAKE IS A LIE!

Originally Posted by Asceai

I'll have you know that seeing that post filled with Cyrillic characters just about made my day. This thread needs more of that. =p

No, no, what would really bring the smile, would be the posts entirely in Chinese.

[GreatSaintLouis]

Esperanto.

Child-styled Russian, pwetty pwease... LOL

[The One Freeman]

Originally Posted by stranger_offline

Sorry guys, but I really hate it when people start comparing "real world" with the "digital world" and assume that if something is _not_ ok in the real world then it is also not ok in the digital world.

How can someone who downloaded a digital copy of a product that s/he a) never had money to buy b) never intended to buy c) even if he wanted to buy it they will never ship it to him. Be equal to someone sneaking into a theater or a train and occupying "physical space" that could have been sold to someone else?

If we go back to the milk bottle example. (let us assume that when you buy the milk bottle you get it in prober packaging but when you duplicate it you get the milk intact but now you have to carry it in a plastic bag)

If you walk into a store while having no money and happened to see a milk bottle and magically re-produce the bottle and left the store, then no sale was lost there. And there is a chance that the person will not like the milk and move on with his/her life.

If you do the same thing but this time with the intension of duplicating that very bottle, again no lose of sale, but again, the store keep can say that you have no right to the milk if you don't have money.

Now if you do have money, and just happened to see the milk bottle and decided "ah what the heck, I don't know if this milk thing is good or not" and just duplicated it for the "sake of it". Some might say that this is lose of sale, but again, what are the chances that this person would have been interested in this "milk thingy" and actually pay for it? If anything, this person might like the milk and decide to buy it or buy "similar" milk in the future (assuming that the duplicating process does consume a lot of time and does come with the risk of getting spoiled milk).

On the other hand, if the person a) do have money b) know what the milk is c) have the means of getting the milk. But still go ahead of duplicate the milk, then "yes" this is an out right lose of sale and the store owner should feel bad about the existence of the duplicating machine.

The problem comes is when everyone who do have money start to duplicate the milk bottle instead of buying it. That is when the store can go under. But the real question is, how can the store owner tell what is the real reason for his/her lose of sale?
a) is it because everyone who had money kept duplicating his/her milk?
b) is it that people were not happy with his/her milk and started to get milk from someone else?

Seeing how thing in the real world are working, then in my opinion, the shop keeper will assume the first option "my milk is perfect, everyone is only using my milk, since the sale didn't meet my expectation then it is because everyone is duplicating it". The thought that honest buyer will buy the milk if they did like it will never cross his/her mind. (reminder, the store owner can never tell the number of people who did duplicate the milk, and 2nd he won't be able to tell which group of people those duplicators belong to. Also another group exist, those who do pay for a product then download it while waiting for the physical copy to arrive, I've done this myself).

How can the music and film industry say that they are making profit while at the same time suffer from piracy is beyond my understanding.

So you're saying that just because there is an infinate amount of copies, and if you have no money you wouldn't buy it anyway, that makes it ok to take it/copy it/duplicate it/something with milk again?

The "worlds" may be different, but the law stays the same. And I don't think you can even use milk as an example because that idea doesn't inheritly belong to anybody, or any company. The process itself is mainstream and used by an extremely large percentage of farmers. And the milk not unique or different, other than the fat in it.

Also, you're talking about a store owner, he just sells the stuff, he doesn't actually make it.

An individual game is completely opposite, they are unique, the game itself is one of a kind (generally), and it's an issue of the company when the data is copied/stolen.

And I don't see how being poor justifies piracy, because that person who takes the game can't pay for it, and the company has in fact lost a potential buyer (even if it would take a year to pay for it).

The reason the law exists is so that EVERYBODY doesn't start downloading for free, because the companies will have no sales and lose money, then the companies start shutting down, and you're stuck with nothing to look forward to in the future.


But go ahead, you're just one person. Pffft who cares about one person. It's not like people will catch on to the idea or anything.Lastly, I could argue that since duplicating milk in the manner you suggest is impossible, it has no relevance to the discussion and shouldn't be used.

[The One Freeman]

Sorry, posting lagged, just delete this.

If you're stealing from a store, that doesn't mean you're stealing from the company -- but the store owner himself. The store has to buy the product from the company, and in turn resells it... So it actuality you're hurting the little guy. Not that this has any relevance to the thread, but hey -- it's a common misconception that I had to comment on.

[luckyovermind]

Originally Posted by Asceai

I'll have you know that seeing that post filled with Cyrillic characters just about made my day. This thread needs more of that. =p

Same here XD

I will vote that one as the best post in this entire thread XD

Originally Posted by stranger_offline

How can someone who downloaded a digital copy of a product that s/he a) never had money to buy b) never intended to buy c) even if he wanted to buy it they will never ship it to him. Be equal to someone sneaking into a theater or a train and occupying "physical space" that could have been sold to someone else?

You never went to a theater, I think.
1) Save for the biggest blockbusters (and even then, in the first weeks), there are always a few seats left for a given movie.
2) The "physical" place is still sold to someone else because since you sneaked into the theatre/train, it's not recorded so the computer will still mark the place as being available.

OTOH, I guess we can call that "elitism" but that's the "elitism" caused by money, an elitism called "capitalism". In other words, you don't deserve anything for which you didn't pay, save if it was intended as being free.