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General Discussion Theres a Clannad of AIR-headed Kanon fodder being shot by the Little Busters After Tomoyo on a Planet-arian.

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  #61  
Old 2006-10-08, 13:26
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Talbain Talbain is offline
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Confused, that's not the matter in question. The matter at question is the legality of such translations. They are clearly illegal, it is just that no body can enforce their illegality because there is no united world government that oversees everything, nor has the ability to make such decisions that are so far-reaching.
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  #62  
Old 2006-10-08, 14:01
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Er.

Am I the only one who thinks this has nothing to do with unauthorized use or legal matters or piracy or all that rubbish?

After all.

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The problem is that mere economic benefit does not adequately compensate someone for the unauthorised use of their property. It is na´ve to expect authors to be pleased to receive a handful of sales, when the "price" for those sales is losing control of their own creation. It could even be described as equivalent to the case where a house is broken into and a sum of money left on the houseowner's pillow: even if nothing is stolen, the owner will feel personally violated. The analogy is, of course, inexact: breaking and entering is a criminal offence, punishable by imprisonment, while non-commercial copyright infringement by distribution of an unauthorised derivative work is, I believe, merely a civil offence. But it may not be so inexact from the point of view of the feelings of the victim.
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  #63  
Old 2006-10-08, 15:41
zalas zalas is offline
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl
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Translation barely fits into that category, if at all. Translation is merely an attempted presentation in a different language of some subject matter that is not available in that language. There is hardly any creative inspiration derived from the original piece going on here
Translation is every bit as engaging from the right brain as it is for the left. You aren't just translating words.

Words themselves are just fixed co-ordinates on a poly-dimentional cultural tapestry. Meaningless things being used to give meaning. You have to bring your own experiences, culture, feelings, and being to the table or what you'll create will read more like a car repair manual than a story.
Note that not all right brain activities are considered "creative." If you are merely sketching a copy of some picture, you are not being creative in my books. If you are playing music from a score, you aren't being very creative either, even though you are using your right brain. The amount of your own experience, culture, feelings and being that you throw into a translation should be as little as possible. Otherwise, you end up with a translation that is too liberal whereas something a little more conservative would've been just as useful in conveying the original intended meaning. You don't throw in something just because "it would sound better with this." You throw in something that's not literal because it would just sound terrible with the literal translation.
A better way to describe words are that they are a lower-dimensional projection of a higher dimensional meaning, and that the translation process isn't merely to take the lower-dimensional projection and perform a direct transform on that into another lower-dimensional projection (the words of a different language). The correct way to do this is to reconstruct the higher dimensional meaning from the lower dimensional projection of words by using priors derived from the culture and environment of the speaker producing the original down-projection and then reproject that meaning onto a lower dimensional space corresponding to the words of the target language.
The only creativity here is the mapping down to a lower dimensional space of the target language from the meaning. Now compare this to what inspiration is normally referring to, such as doujinshi, etc. For doujinshi, you would be assimilating parts of the meaning of the original work and adding your own meaning into the meaning space and then projecting it down into words. Surely, something that is actually creating new material is more creative than a translation.
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  #64  
Old 2006-10-09, 00:46
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I've been anonymously lurking around this site ever since i found out about the Kanon translation and upon reading the front page, i felt i should say something.

I won't write a novel about my thoughts and feelings like some people have about haeleth putting the Kanon translation on hold and i suppose i'm one of the lucky few out there for whom reading japanese has stopped being a problem. It would have been nice to be able to play Kanon in my own native language but things on the internet are often not meant to be. At least haeleth (eventually) had the courtesy to announce that he was stopping work on the project. And remember that there are too many people out there who make a big fuss about starting to translate game X and then disappear. (It looks like this is turning into a novel after all ^_^;)
We might be lucky and discover that Key is allowing some entity to translate Kanon or we might be lucky and find someone with the appropriate translation and technical skills to make a Kanon translation project of their own who isn't bound by the same morals that Haeleth is. (I disqualify myself from this because I lack the technical skills to program the tools that would be needed and I don't know of anyone who would program them for me.)
But, this is the internet and this is the way things are... well thanks at least for having the courtesy to inform us that you're halting the project haeleth, I just wish that more people would do that.
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  #65  
Old 2006-10-09, 01:15
Carl Carl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalas
A better way to describe words are that they are a lower-dimensional projection of a higher dimensional meaning, and that the translation process isn't merely to take the lower-dimensional projection and perform a direct transform on that into another lower-dimensional projection (the words of a different language). The correct way to do this is to reconstruct the higher dimensional meaning from the lower dimensional projection of words by using priors derived from the culture and environment of the speaker producing the original down-projection and then reproject that meaning onto a lower dimensional space corresponding to the words of the target language.
The only creativity here is the mapping down to a lower dimensional space of the target language from the meaning. Now compare this to what inspiration is normally referring to, such as doujinshi, etc. For doujinshi, you would be assimilating parts of the meaning of the original work and adding your own meaning into the meaning space and then projecting it down into words. Surely, something that is actually creating new material is more creative than a translation.
This is exactly it, but I'd love to know how you reconstruct the higher-level cultural entity without using any of your own cultural experiences and understanding.
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  #66  
Old 2006-10-10, 00:06
zalas zalas is offline
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl
This is exactly it, but I'd love to know how you reconstruct the higher-level cultural entity without using any of your own cultural experiences and understanding.
Not sure why you are asking this, but you reconstruct it by using *what you know* about the writer's cultural experience and environment. They may not be the culture you grew up in, but that doesn't mean you can't learn about it. That is not the same as being in that culture and growing up in it. The more you know about the culture and experiences of the writer, the better you are at producing an accurate translation.
For example, if I'm translating a piece from Japanese to English, I'm surely not going to use my own cultural experiences, because they are mostly American with a splash of Chinese. I should be using what I know about Japanese culture, which I never grew up in and never experienced, to reconstruct the higher meaning entity.
For some reason, I'm getting the feeling that we both are in agreement, but we're using totally incompatible nomenclature to describe our views. ^^;
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  #67  
Old 2006-10-10, 00:18
Carl Carl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl
This is exactly it, but I'd love to know how you reconstruct the higher-level cultural entity without using any of your own cultural experiences and understanding.
Not sure why you are asking this, but you reconstruct it by using *what you know* about the writer's cultural experience and environment. They may not be the culture you grew up in, but that doesn't mean you can't learn about it. That is not the same as being in that culture and growing up in it. The more you know about the culture and experiences of the writer, the better you are at producing an accurate translation.
For example, if I'm translating a piece from Japanese to English, I'm surely not going to use my own cultural experiences, because they are mostly American with a splash of Chinese. I should be using what I know about Japanese culture, which I never grew up in and never experienced, to reconstruct the higher meaning entity.
For some reason, I'm getting the feeling that we both are in agreement, but we're using totally incompatible nomenclature to describe our views. ^^;
More or less, except I'm not of the view that you can recreate someone else's culture based on drips and drabs. What you don't know, you have to fill with something, be it something roughly analogous from your own culture, something that seems to fit based on the context, or just something you made up. Without a perfect insight into the creators mind, somewhere along the line you're going to have to go from purely passive conversion into something more active, irrespective of whether you like the idea of doing so or not.
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  #68  
Old 2006-10-10, 07:45
DragonmasterX DragonmasterX is offline
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So I take it haeleth has e-mailed Visual Arts/Key some time ago, but has received no response yet?
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  #69  
Old 2006-10-10, 09:01
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So I take it haeleth has e-mailed Visual Arts/Key some time ago, but has received no response yet?
Read the front page. All Kanon-related activities are on hold until work on altogether and Narcissu Side 2nd has finished. A request for permission might happen then.
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  #70  
Old 2006-10-11, 00:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl
More or less, except I'm not of the view that you can recreate someone else's culture based on drips and drabs. What you don't know, you have to fill with something, be it something roughly analogous from your own culture, something that seems to fit based on the context, or just something you made up. Without a perfect insight into the creators mind, somewhere along the line you're going to have to go from purely passive conversion into something more active, irrespective of whether you like the idea of doing so or not.
Well, t