Piracy flaming goes here

[GatoNegro]

Elitist? LOL

Let me tell you something, i live in Venezuela, a Latin American country, and maybe you know our fucked president Chaves, where i live, everyday is harder to find $ 'cause the president hates Bush and that things, so how do you suppose to me to pay 90$ in a game where i can't understand an word, and if i go to pages like Himeya, almost all games cost 90$, so thats a LOT in my country 'cause the dollar here is in the heavens and to ship were a live and that stuff, probably will cost me like x3 the real cost of the game...

[nachtrabe]

Originally Posted by GatoNegro

Elitist? LOL

Let me tell you something, i live in Venezuela, a Latin American country, and maybe you know our fucked president Chaves, where i live, everyday is harder to find $ 'cause the president hates Bush and that things, so how do you suppose to me to pay 90$ in a game where i can't understand an word, and if i go to pages like Himeya, almost all games cost 90$, so thats a LOT in my country 'cause the dollar here is in the heavens and to ship were a live and that stuff, probably will cost me like x3 the real cost of the game...

What does the price of tea in China have to do with anything?

[Asceai]

Originally Posted by GatoNegro

Elitist? LOL

Let me tell you something, i live in Venezuela, a Latin American country, and maybe you know our fucked president Chaves, where i live, everyday is harder to find $ 'cause the president hates Bush and that things, so how do you suppose to me to pay 90$ in a game where i can't understand an word, and if i go to pages like Himeya, almost all games cost 90$, so thats a LOT in my country 'cause the dollar here is in the heavens and to ship were a live and that stuff, probably will cost me like x3 the real cost of the game...

That's fine.

No-one is expecting you to pay for things that you don't understand a word of. But then, why would you want them in the first place? If you wouldn't, then this isn't aimed at you anyway =P

There is absolutely nothing wrong or elitist about the viewpoint that people should be paid for their work.

There is absolutely nothing wrong or elitist about the viewpoint that people should be paid for their work.

Certainly, although it's impossible to convince people who live within cultures that don't foster respect for copyrights. Where piracy is concern, they have no sense of right or wrong, so whatever you say could easily be misconstrued as elitism.

From what I see, those people are among the staunchest critics of anti-piracy stances (with mainstream game piracy among westerners, I rarely see accusations that anti-piracy arguments are elitist, presumably because most have a lifelong understanding of the ethical issues. We usually see cliche justifications, such as annoying DRM that doesn't exist in pirated copies, poor game quality, or too high of a cost for what you get). Arguments quickly degenerate into the rich first world looking down on unworthy, third world beings.

This indignation is further exacerbated by the fact that those people are probably proud/affluent and relatively well off within their own nations (thus they feel they deserve to play the same games as a westerner or Japanese in a comparable position, but are potentially deprived of the chance via circumstances they can't control), so it's a pointless fight without solution.

I don't know how damaging piracy is on the industry, but in an interview with Valve's vice president of marketing he said:

Well, piracy is bad, of course. But I don't think it's as big of a problem, at least for us*, as people think. The majority of gamers still want to do the right thing and pay for their games. There will always be pirated games, movies and music. But the vast majority of gamers are honest and aren't going to steal the games.

I remember when I bought the Wind DVD (and Himeya at the time agreed to ship to Tanzania), I didn't need to search for the DVD because it made it's way to the top 10 seller. And later Himeya almost doubled the price of the DVD (I believe due to the scarce of the DVD), but it remained in the top 10 for a while. Now Fate/Stay night is in the top list and who knows, Clannad *might* follow.

Translation of a game (which I am truly grateful for by the way), might and might not have/will help the sale of the game. But the attitude of some of the translators have been "all of you are a punch of pirates and we are sick of you all". Sorry guys, but do you expect every fan to take a picture of him/her (yes, there are a number of women fans) with the package and send you their pictures? It is this attitude from the fan translators toward the fan errr (user?!) that can be viewed as elitist. In the same way that the fan translator doesn't owe the fan user anything, the opposite it true, except for gratitude the fan user owe the translator nothing.

I don't know what started this discussion, and it does seem like it started in another thread, buuuutttt I thought I might through my 2 cents in, since I am a fan user who is a victim of the "generalisation" attitude that some of the fan translators seem to take.

* offering a download version of the game that is sold world wide does help.

[GatoNegro]

Originally Posted by Asceai

That's fine.

No-one is expecting you to pay for things that you don't understand a word of. But then, why would you want them in the first place? If you wouldn't, then this isn't aimed at you anyway =P

OK, thats true, you have rigth; i only get the games that are beging translated, or planned, i know that is not right, and i think that 70% of the persons that buy/download Visual Novels or other jap games they don't know a word...

PS:maybe you guys don't understand what i truly want to say cause of my limited english... i hope you understand...

[The One Freeman]

Originally Posted by GatoNegro

Elitist? LOL

Let me tell you something, i live in Venezuela, a Latin American country, and maybe you know our fucked president Chaves, where i live, everyday is harder to find $ 'cause the president hates Bush and that things, so how do you suppose to me to pay 90$ in a game where i can't understand an word, and if i go to pages like Himeya, almost all games cost 90$, so thats a LOT in my country 'cause the dollar here is in the heavens and to ship were a live and that stuff, probably will cost me like x3 the real cost of the game...

Resigning yourself to theivery is a choice you make, and it is 100% not your only option.

(I'm going to throw something out there, Venezuela is NOT America's problem, so don't go there [if you weren't then I apologize for this])


So you're poor and can't afford to spend $90? Well as it turns out, plenty of Americans can't either, but I'll say that it definately would be much harder for you to get anything down in that third-world. And you're right, I guess I don't really 'know' how hard you have it. Although it still doesn't justify criminal activity, to me anyway, it's like the border jumpers who come here breaking laws and yelling they are entitled to things...the closest real life comparison I can think of.

[Enerccio]

One big example of elitism is what insani did with planetarian.
Look, I know, it was being pirated. But look at insanis guide. Is it working? If it was, I would get planetarian legally for the first time (10 bucks isn't THAT much). But apparently, it isn't working. Therefore, I was _forced_ to get it off megaupload. But now, look, I bought cd version of planetarian. And this is where elitism comes in the way. Just because insani feels like to not make the patch for cd version because of pirates, then those who got their cd version legally are in bad position, reliable on third party solutions (which are even buggy). Why? Just so.

That is elitist how? If a majority of people are pirating planetarian, it is the people who have bought the cd and think that they are entitled to a patch that are elitists. They are the minority that think the system should be changed just to accommodate them. They bought the Cd version knowing full well that it wasn't supported. No one forced anyone else to download from megaupload.

To be clear, I'm highly unsympathetic towards pirates who call others elitists when they themselves are clearly only thinking about themselves.

[drmchsr0]

Doesn't matter either way.

Kicking up a fuss when you realize that people will be people doesn't help your cause, and no matter how you explain it, the only thing people will think is that you are a hypocrite and cannot be trusted or respected.

Also, don't give Gip wank material.

[GreatSaintLouis]

Do these threads really need to keep being spun off into minor sub-threads? I thought the discussion about supposed elitism was born out of the phrase being used to describe people of the staunch anti-piracy mindset; thus wouldn't the two be related?

Also, Agilis, if you're so over the piracy argument, why bother posting in the thread to have mods trim it down into ever more obnoxiously specific topics in the first place? Fine, you're not one to argue the point (and I'm not saying the issue doesn't become tired or that progress is ever made), but why does that turn the discussion into a cesspool? I would have thought that you also, as a translator, if not willing to join the ridiculous fray would at least be understanding of the passion one can feel about the art. Yeah, I'll agree the argument is often cyclical and a waste of typing, but if you're already fixed in your opinion why bother patronize the rest of us who happen to be a bit more (regrettably) vocal on the point?

Originally Posted by GreatSaintLouis

Do these threads really need to keep being spun off into minor sub-threads? I thought the discussion about supposed elitism was born out of the phrase being used to describe people of the staunch anti-piracy mindset; thus wouldn't the two be related?

nah man, I think you got it wrong... or maybe I did (most likely I did since I don't know where the original discussion came from).

Standing by what you think/believe is right is not elitist in any way. The problem comes when a fan translator get tired from translating and start calling everyone pirates. And this usually where "we/us vs you/they" begin.

I do understand that translating is not a fun process (in fact I can think of it as a punishment, how many times did the Clannad translator team go through the same script already?). The team should expect some well earned gratitude once they released the patch, and they should expect the ones who have waited for it to be honest enough to actually buy/import the title. There is nothing wrong with this.

The problem is when their work does get pirated (and I'll be surprised if they didn't see this coming), they start taking it out on everyone, and they don't even do it on the forum of the people who are re-distributing the patch.... but they do it here!*. Getting tiered and deciding not to do another massive/time consuming project again is fine. But do step down gracefully as when you entered the first time, there is no need to say "you people are a punch of pirates, are unworthy of my time and I will not do another translation because of you people!" You'll be surprised to know that some people did in fact buy the title because of this translators work, reading those type of statements from the translators is quite painful. (and for all its worth, in Tanzania, buying those titles is cheaper then downloading them, 1gb of bandwidth cost about US$ 50. Although this will be my last time going through Akibado, it toke 2 months and 3 weeks for them to send Clannad!)

P.S. since I don't even bother to login I might seem like an outsider trying to put his nose where it shouldn't be. So I hope that nobody gets upset/angry with my posts and continue a spirited discussion. Cheers

*This remind me of my high school electronic teacher, he decided to give the class an extra lesson before the exam, less then half the class came to the lesson (me being one) and he started to shout at "us" for not taking his good gesture and he told us to leave the class! He was upset at the ones who didn't come, yet delivered his anger at the ones that did come! What gives?

[Asceai]

GSL, whatever Agilis' motivations may or may not have been, I think splitting off the thread was a decent idea. Sorry for derailing it, guys =P

[luckyovermind]

Get a full time job. Then you should have some spare money if you are eating instant noodles everyday like me. And that should be enough to buy you some eroge for christmas.