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  #31  
Old 2011-01-16, 05:13
YiuKorochko YiuKorochko is offline
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Default Re: OELVNs

I joined this site as I was linked here by RenPyTom.

Hi all, my name is Yiu Korochko. The reason why I joined to reply is that I am developing a Visual Novel entitled "錯覚に出す/Delving into Illusion". Now I am not sure if you can call it an OELVN because of how it's being collaborated, with me being an English native speaker but having a large experience in Japanese culture with the co-producer being Japanese, born and raised in Japan, attending University in Germany. I also have a slew of links through another Japanese friend who are voice acting in the VN.

As for the story, I had been writing another story which I planned to simply hand over to a Japanese VN creator I knew at the time when I found a diverse storyline. I've been planning and writing this story for the past 4 years now, and I've recently been working to make it as serious and as plugged as possible (having no loopholes or contradictions).

For art, I've been trying to move to an all-digital environment, but it's not going very well. Because I haven't had to write or draw on paper for some 2 years now, I find it annoying to go back from the screen to the drawing room. My drawings are quite alright, and I've been working on techniques here and there such as hair-shine (which is one of the few things I simply haven't been able to get the hang of). I'm putting a huge amount of studying and far more money into this project than a lot of other OELVNs would have (well, evidently). Because of both money and a strong disliking of paper, production will be incredibly slow, but hey. I'm doing the whole project myself more or less, having others voice act, work on story structure and that's pretty much it.

I had a BG artist for a while, but he's shown no particular interest in the project so I'm pretty sure I'll have to do BG as well.

Here are couple links to related pages, including the main dedicated site.
http://www.sakkakunidasu.yolasite.com/
http://glasgowanime.org/forum/index.php?topic=17.0
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  #32  
Old 2011-01-16, 05:21
YiuKorochko YiuKorochko is offline
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Oh, I forgot to mention, my VN will be free.

If it's good enough, I'll get an animation company wanting to make it a mini series. High hopes right? Well if it's not then it's just a free project and I'll feel good for accomplishing it anyway.

On a personal note and to add to the discussion...
I haven't played the original Japanese version of Fate/Stay Night but the English version was terrible...I tried to watch the anime subtitled by ThorAnime but still...
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  #33  
Old 2011-01-16, 05:43
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At least for now, OELVN community, is preety self-centered and doesn't consist only of people who are avid VN fans. And there's the point that in overall, we (as the VN fans) are NOT a one big community but a set of smaller sub-communities, each one with their own standards, rules and expectations...

LSF has been preetily declining over last months, in spite that the Ren'Py gets more and more powerful. That's because, even there's been a bunch of new people coming in, they're mostly fangirls/fanboys and casuals that just had this dream of "making a game" and want to make it ASAP. They don't now anything about game developement, art and storytelling, but they usually make their games because Ren'Py is simple enough that even the most lazy and useless person in the world could take their 15 mins and make a shitty mash-up using it; it's not like other DEV kits, which aren't made towards such audience and you usually need weeks digging through various tutorials, examples and guidebooks just to make anything working. That's why they make those games - shitty, boring fan works; they are like that because what they do is copying japanese visual novels, not creating their own ones, and let's be honest - most of them aren't game developers at all, and will NEVER be. The most experienced people - people that are really worth something as "developers" - are slowly exiting the LSF and Ren'Py game "making" scene, mostly because their slowly start their own carrers as indie/pro game developers or well... leave the LSF because they are not happy with it's current state. And it's obvious, that without some guidance and help from the elder creators, this new generation won't go anywhere, because there isn't any critic on their works and they are all eqally self-praising themselves. Try to be a bit more critical and everyone will just point at you and say how bad of a person you are... It's been slowly changing lately, mostly because of some hard working individuals, that would like to see the english scene going a little bit higher in quality, but it's not enough.

As for the rest... be aware that despite everything, LSF has nothing to do with Ren'Py at all! It's just a game making community set up quite a long time ago by Blue Lemma and it just happened to be the most extensive gathering of Ren'Py users. Even Pytom (the creator) says there's no particular connection beetwen Ren'Py and LSF and he stated that many times before. He would rather propably want to create a proper one, but he has no time to maintain such thing, that's why things are as they are. Also, that's the reason why the oldest and most experienced (you can kinda that) went to Teacup instead of sitting on the LSF.

Personally, I hate the word "OELVN". There's no such distinction. Visual novels are visual novels, no matter where they ARE created. It's just a type of medium like any other. So please, don't generalize and say, that every thing that isn't made in Japan and is a VN is meant to be shitty. There are really BAD japanese VN's as well (most of nukige, for example, but they point is they are made for different purposes :D). The western vn developers are at the point of slowly becoming more conscious, but it will take some time before we will be able to see more quality stuff, so don't expect anything soon. Eitherway, there are already few interesting projects to follow up, the most interesting being the Craddle Song by Dischan group (with an extra bit of some of the former KS staff members). It will just take some time before we will learn how to make visual novels of decent quality that could equally stand against japanese works. You can't expect novices to make something decent (and that's LSF is, most of them being just fangirls/fanboys that want to make a visual novel).

Everyone makes the same error. No one understands visual novels are a nieche market, even in japan (no, really - just ask someone otuside akibara if they know what visual novels are). It won't work in the western world and it's not a metter of anime artstyle, because people really do like it here. It's the whole point of a visual novel, that matters. STOP COPYING JAPANESE WORKS and at least one time try to create something that would be a PROPER STORY TOLD WITHIN VISUAL NOVEL MEDIUM, TARGETED AT OUR WESTERN NEEDS AND EXPECTATIONS. I strongly do believe, that it will work this way, because visual novels are just like books... no, like movies, comics, books and games all mixed-up together and told via computers. That's all that is to it.

I even made a survey (you can find the translated version here: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/vie...php?f=4&t=8654) in my own country and asked people, that aren't well acknowledged what visual novels are. Unexceptedly, the results are more than satisfactionary, BUT PLEASE DO LOOK AT SOME POINTS and make a proper analysis out of that. Some of them just wouldn't work here as they work in japanese market, but every western game maker still tries to cling onto them. It's like repeating the same error all over again.

Despite that, everything that's need to be done can be done, we just need to stop freeting, stop complaining and work hard on that, just like japanese developers do in their own country. The conclusion: if you want to start with a new game type in your country, you can't just bluntly copy others workstyles but make that game for your own market (OWN, by that I don't mean your country's market). You can't use work patterns from a videly different market and believe they will work in yours as they are. It's just like putting a plane into the water - it can fly, but it won't swim and dive like submarine does. Yet they are all machines. You just have to redesign that airplane a bit, so it may at least float on that water.

Last edited by IceD; 2011-01-16 at 07:14.
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  #34  
Old 2011-01-16, 06:16
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Originally Posted by Strum;68268

However, a very small number of games do actually look promising [url
http://vndb.org/v5634[/url] no idea on what the story is like since there's no demo and the game has yet to be released.
man, if your only interest is in games where you dont even know what theyre about or if the writing sucks or even if the game will ever exist but you say its promising based solely on some pictures you should stick to buying artbooks they will disappoint you less in the end
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  #35  
Old 2011-01-16, 06:19
YiuKorochko YiuKorochko is offline
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@IceD

The Ren'Py engine may seem oversimplified and yes, there may be a whole flood of novices creating shitty VNs, but what should be recognized is that Py'Tom has made a simple tool for a simple thing. Showing images text and video on-screen is NOT difficult to achieve through other forms of programming. And it shouldn't be otherwise, game or not. What is important doesn't lie within Ren'Py, but in the users which is what we all agree on. If you want to start developing 3D videogames then you shouldn't even bother with a 2D rendering engine.

I'm bilingual, and my VN is being developed FOR the Japanese community, with Japanese collaborators. The only reason why I've even considered making an English version is so that it doesn't wind up a shitty translation.
After 4 years of development and constant revision with those who are involved in such VNs as well I think I'm pretty safe on the grounds of originality and integrity.

I've honestly only played 2 or 3 visual novels that weren't eroge (Sakkaku ni Dasu isn't an eroge, as a note...) and I'm not modeling my VN against anything else. It's a story I thought up, with chapters and choices I've thought through.

I don't mean to rant...but after all the time I've put into this, I'd like not to be thrown in with the rest of these "fannies".
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  #36  
Old 2011-01-16, 06:44
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man, if your only interest is in games where you dont even know what theyre about or if the writing sucks or even if the game will ever exist but you say its promising based solely on some pictures you should stick to buying artbooks they will disappoint you less in the end
It seems I've rubbed someone the wrong way. Are you by any chance an OELVN developer? If you are then my apologies if you feel insulted that people like me won't even give your games a chance, but that's just the way I am.

Aesthetics mean a lot when it comes to selling something. Do you pick up games that have terrible or boring packaging or would you pick up one that has a nicely designed box? I don't know about you but I would pick up the one with the nicer packaging then read the back to see what the story is like. Where as games with bad packaging I would just walk past as if it wasn't even there.

The point is, a game has to visually stand out to get my attention. The game I mentioned did visually stand out and so, has my attention. Okay the plot seems average but that's fine, its interesting enough. If you could care less what people like me think then fair enough.
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  #37  
Old 2011-01-16, 08:38
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Again, one of those TL & DR posts :D

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Originally Posted by YiuKorochko View Post
I don't mean to rant...but after all the time I've put into this, I'd like not to be thrown in with the rest of these "fannies".
I'd like to point out, that your arguments are invalid. I'm sorry if it will sound offending, but you're not better than the rest. Why? Your work is a perfect example from few things, that shouldn't be done. You say you've spent nearly 4 years in developement (with a team), yet I still can't seem to find anything that would prove your hard work (at least they can't be found anywhere on the site - no screenshots, descriptions or even a plot summary), and as an interested person, it feels like I've been cheated through all that time. Of course, you may have your reason for not showing anything, but then there wouldn't be also a reason in starting the whole disscusion; beggars can't be choosers after all, and staying on such edge of game developement means sacrificing some of your work's credibility. If that's the truth, just say it, don't hide with that.

Let's be honest (nothing personal), as a consumer I wouldn't give a s**t about how long did you and your team worked on the project, nor who you are. I just want to see some progress; Not just plain words. and as an amateur game developer, You should be aware of that. If you don't want to show, then don't. Don't say you're working on a project. Just work on it, the same with the rest of your team. And when the right time comes, release it. That's the right way to do it. Don't look for praise on the net, just because you're doing a vn, because you won't get it in that way and setting up a site already means you want to create a community and have some contact with other people. Don't do this, if you're not ready for that.

As for the Ren'Py, I wonder what would happen if one day PyTom would decide to drop the standard template engine and go with full-blown SDK-style... I can assure you, that in the next month or two, everything would kinda came back to the same situation from the past few years, when Ren'Py was still early in developement and had only a bunch of community fellows. But it's not a matter of that. Ren'Py is not SIMPLE, it was designed to be simple to appeal to bigger masses of people, but this also caused the decrease in overall quality of such works, because not everyone on this world is born to become a good game developer (if at all), and ironically Ren'Py overcomes this by giving a simple, basic template that's ready to work right from the start. Just insert a handful of cg's and text and voila - visual novel has been acquired! But is it really a visual novel product? You say it's all in the hands of users. Of course it is, but who will exactly have the courage to tell them straight, that their works are crap and their firstly need to learn what is the process of creating a game, and how is it to be a game developer? Who will give them a hand, so they might learn how to do it properly? Who will tell them, that being a game developer means responsibility the most? Life is not that simple as just making stuff, that comes out of your head reality.

Nobody will care if you have talent or not. If you want to create something only for yourself, then do it. But if you come out with this work, know that it has to have some quality in it. You're a begginer? Then learn how to do it properly first, before you start making a game. Unfortunately there's no instruction in the Ren'Py documentation on how to create good games and how to be a good game developer. You have to learn that yourself, and it will take some time.

I'm not better either. I worked on few amateur polish games before I even started my adventure with visual novels and western community, but as a lone developer that just started to try to achieve something I made many mistakes before I finally understood how some things should be done in a proper manner. I'm not afraid to show those mistakes, either: HERE and HERE. As you can see, as a single amateur game developer I tried some things in the past that weren't the good way to go, or were meant not to work in that kind of way. Learn from my mistakes. If you want to do something, just od it. By that time, I learned a lot of things. Now I'm writing a full-blown script for my first official project and If everything goes out well, it will be finished this summer. I'm not the best artist myself (or at least not in the level that would be resaonable for this kind of work, I work too slow), that's why I'm planning to hire someone good to do the art and team-up with my friend to compose the music. Even if this will go for free, I won't be freeting about spending a few bucks on it, because in the end, we will all earn out of it, one way or another. Even if something would happen (but it won't, not this time), people who worked on that will at least get a refund for their hard work and commitment. I agree with DaFool, who originally said those words, that it's the only one reasonable way to work with others; that's how market works.

At least now, because I'm able to work alone on everything, I can take my time. And I'm also dedicated to finish this. In two-three years you'll propably see the results, maybe even faster; who knows that. And then you'll be able to judge everything yourselves, because all I can say, that no matter who you are - a beggining western ammateur, or a proffesional japanese game developer - everything can be done with quality, you just have to want to do it that way. You can learn to do some things, and if you don't have the cash, just go and find a job, earn and invest in your better future as a developer... if that's what you want to do, because you love that from the bottom of your heart.

One more time, if someone felt offended by what I wrote, I'm sorry. Yet, some things have to be said, even if they sometimes deeply hurt. I would rather live in a world where everyone would be able to criticise one another, learn and get over that with head held high, than lie and roll in the mud of blind community's self-praise all the time, while doing nothing to improve; the second leads only to chaos and destruction.

Last edited by IceD; 2011-01-16 at 10:28.
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  #38  
Old 2011-01-16, 10:51
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It seems I've rubbed someone the wrong way. Are you by any chance an OELVN developer? If you are then my apologies if you feel insulted that people like me won't even give your games a chance, but that's just the way I am.
you don't get it. i don't play games that look ugly either, not unless they have a pretty fucking amazing story that everyone is talking about. i don't care about what games you're not playing.

i'm annoyed to see anyone talk about how great a game is obviously going to be based on a screenshot. it's not just about you, it pisses me off when i see anyone do it. "wow you cut-and-pasted some nice stolen art from a website there! I bet your game is going to be great!" seriously you can find threads on lemmasoft that are exactly that inane. and it turns out the actual game writer can't even speak english and the eventual game is five minutes of mangled nonsense. or in some cases there is no game and they just stole a screenshot from somewhere to get people to praise them for a game theyre not even making.

it's a stupid argument and its ridiculous to praise a game that doesn't exist if you dont even know what the game is about or whether it is any good at all.

sorry if you misunderstood my blowing up i'm really more pissed off at the hordes of WOW BEST GAME EVER threads than you in particular.
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  #39  
Old 2011-01-16, 10:56
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Most people here are clamoring for is some form of curated system so that they only see the best EVNs and nothing else. This is way different from JVNs which are already curated somewhat (the dividing barrier is the translation... although it's questionable whether it's really the 'best' VNs which are picked for translation, or merely those cheapest to license or those made by the most approachable devs).

Lemmasoft was mostly formed around the Ren'Py engine, so it must be open to all sorts of experiments both good and bad. Unpolished works do serve their purpose -- because their nuts and bolts are laid bare, other devs can learn from their mistakes. Even if they're not expressly criticized, many of us are actually benchmarking using each other's games.

If I were a fledgeling game developer and I were presented with an AAA blockbuster game, I wouldn't know where to start improving. Surrounded by perfection, I would just give up because the amount of skill and manpower required would be overwhelming. But if I were presented with some shitty low budget shovelware, there's plenty of material for me to dissect and learn from. I'll be able to say "Even I can do better than that!" and so the road to motivation for improvement begins.

Regarding the issue of lack of criticism and heapings of praise, the greater issue is apathy. Nothing discourages a fledgeling dev more than 0 replies to the announcement of his game. Even a mere acknowledgement post would be enough. If the work is heading in the right direction, then there would be more meaningful posts that deconstruct that work.

Picking commercial EVN seems to be the most logical way to get a sampling of what's hoped to be the best that's out there. But here's a little secret: The devs selling their OELVNs are not doing so out of hubris (as some here have accused), but because they would otherwise be unemployed. It's simply the raw economic situation.

Ambition is good, but it has to be toned down. Beginner devs often post "I want to make an MMO, who's with me?" in the Unity3D forums and are summarily laughed at. Visual novels -- being barely even "games" are the low-hanging fruit. So understand that there's where the truly amateur would start.

P.S. Most of the troubling W.I.P. threads on Lemmasoft are actually failed "marketing attempts", rather than legitimate recruitment/update status threads.

Last edited by DaFool; 2011-01-16 at 11:01.
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  #40  
Old 2011-01-16, 11:52
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you don't get it. i don't play games that look ugly either, not unless they have a pretty fucking amazing story that everyone is talking about. i don't care about what games you're not playing.

i'm annoyed to see anyone talk about how great a game is obviously going to be based on a screenshot. it's not just about you, it pisses me off when i see anyone do it. "wow you cut-and-pasted some nice stolen art from a website there! I bet your game is going to be great!" seriously you can find threads on lemmasoft that are exactly that inane. and it turns out the actual game writer can't even speak english and the eventual game is five minutes of mangled nonsense. or in some cases there is no game and they just stole a screenshot from somewhere to get people to praise them for a game theyre not even making.

it's a stupid argument and its ridiculous to praise a game that doesn't exist if you dont even know what the game is about or whether it is any good at all.

sorry if you misunderstood my blowing up i'm really more pissed off at the hordes of WOW BEST GAME EVER threads than you in particular.
I am I to assume you are accusing the developer of stealing the artwork from somewhere else? If so, I would like to see the source of the artwork used in his game. The game I mentioned is to be commercial, and for his sake it had better be original artwork which I'm sure it is. So, what would make you say a game looks promising? You want a 500 page script to read so you can get a feel for the story? If so, then whatever floats your boat. For me, nice artwork followed by a plot summary is enough. A demo would be nice, but not essential.

I'm perfectly aware there are people making games but using art that isn't their own. Most of those are made by as YiuKorochko puts it, "fannies". I won't praise such games unless the artwork is something they drew themselves. Its fine if its a picture of a character someone else has created, as long as they drew it. As I've said more than once, I hold my hand up and admit I'm shallow for judging a book by its cover. That's just the kind of person I am. I know all too well the type of people you refer to (right down to the fact he doesn't speak English funnily enough), I myself tried helping one at one point, just to be nice. Turns out the guy was a clown so I left him to finish off his dream game himself (hey, the guy threw everything onto my shoulders while he went on and on about how sad his life is).

Continue this discussion if you must and I'll continue to reply. I'm not here to promote any game in particular. I just used that one as an example of what would appeal to me. If there isn't enough information there to appeal to you then that's your issue. However, what's your opinion of OELVNs? If you already stated your opinion then fair enough, but its a bit hard to tell one unregistered user from the next.

This thread is about our opinion on OELVNs and I've stated mine. The artwork of almost all OELVNs (I won't say all as there maybe some I'm not aware of) does not suit my taste, be it poor quality or just a different style, it just doesn't appeal to me. Therefore, I'm just not all that interested in OELVNs at the moment. In a nut shell that is my opinion.

Last edited by Strum; 2011-01-16 at 12:05.
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  #41  
Old 2011-01-16, 12:06
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I am I to assume you are accusing the developer of stealing the artwork from somewhere else? If so, I would like to see the source of the artwork used in his game. The game I mentioned is to be commercial, and for his sake it had better be original artwork which I'm sure it is.
learn to read. if youre going to keep making up stuff i didn't say in my posts i see no point in me continuing to answer you.

ONCE AGAIN. i am pissed off in general with people praising things based solely on a screenshot because i have repeatedly seen screenshots being faked, games never being completed, or games being complete shit other than the pictures. i am sick of obnoxious cheerleaders. i want to see good games. a screenshot is not a good game.

i don't care what you think about OELVNs in general and i am not accusing that particular developer of anything. the world is not all about you.
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  #42  
Old 2011-01-16, 12:16
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i'm annoyed to see anyone talk about how great a game is obviously going to be based on a screenshot. it's not just about you, it pisses me off when i see anyone do it. "wow you cut-and-pasted some nice stolen art from a website there! I bet your game is going to be great!" seriously you can find threads on lemmasoft that are exactly that inane.
That to me sounds like your saying I'm praising a game where the art could have been stolen from somewhere. Or have I gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick?

Yes screenshots can be photoshopped but you'll find that out when the game is released. I say again, that the game LOOKS promising. I never said that the game was the best game ever made or anything like that.

If you want to cry or blow a fuse just because I gave a bit of praise about a particular game on its looks then go ahead. The world isn't about me I know, but this thread is asking for people's opinions. Since I am a person, I gave mine. On that note, the world isn't about you either. No one cares if it annoys you how these "cheerleaders" praise a game on it's looks only to turn out crap or the whole thing turns out to be a hoax. Your posts are all about you, how this annoys you or how that annoys you. So what if it does?

Last edited by Strum; 2011-01-16 at 12:47.
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  #43  
Old 2011-01-16, 13:05
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  #44  
Old 2011-01-16, 18:11
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Which novel does she belong to?
Thanks.
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Old 2011-01-16, 18:47
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It's fanart based on the Haruhi Suzumiya light novels.
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