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2006-10-02 20:21
someone out there Look if you really want a poor 'novel' visual novel that is in graphic format, consider gettign Zyx's 'Chain'. 'Chain' was the purest example of a visual 'novel' translated in English .

And, 'CHain', for me, had the atmosphere of a text adventure. If anything, text adventures should be considered as one of, if not, the real start of interactive fiction, as it is the foundation that the ren'ai format we are familiar with are based on.
2006-09-29 20:26
feeling_the_heart ever played Scarlett one of an action game from nekoneko soft, although not excatly you play the action game, just imagination game.
2006-09-29 20:24
feeling_the_heart visual novel = graphic novel. so like novel you read with some music background. there are visual novel. so no seiyuu or anything. if the game using seiyuu that is not visual novel, there was love simulation games.
2006-09-29 12:24
mikey
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFool
(For some reason it feels like I've read this conversation before ^_^)
Actually, now that you mention it, your name does sound familiar to me, I could swear I saw you on a different forum ^_^

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFool
Anyways, so in this definition a true VN-adventure is actually a kinetic novel with choices to force the player to go on temporary tangents but eventually falling back to mainline (or maybe, a quick gameover), thus, with only one true ending ?
Yes, that's basically what I was on about. That's the structure of the typical Western (point-and-click) adventure, a quick brainstorm says it's Eve, Desire, Chain, Fatal Relations, Love Potion and a few more. IMO it's an important distinction, since those are linear stories, and potential fans will know there are no multiple love/sex interests to pursue.
2006-09-29 05:56
DaFool
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey
I like to differ between visual novel adventures and visual novel CYOAs in my personal view, the VN-CYOA being Flood Of Tears, and VN-adventure being Eve Burst Error. They both have the same principle of presentation (text, music, sprite and BG), but the VN-adventure doesn't have branching paths - it has a linear storyline and uses obstacles to hinder your progress - exhausting all conversation options, revisiting places - similar to point-and-clicks where you solve puzzles or talk to people or use items, "clear rooms" before they let you advance. The principle is the same though. There are very little VN-adventures though, as most of the English games are VN-CYOAs or even linear VNs.
(For some reason it feels like I've read this conversation before ^_^)

Anyways, so in this definition a true VN-adventure is actually a kinetic novel with choices to force the player to go on temporary tangents but eventually falling back to mainline (or maybe, a quick gameover), thus, with only one true ending ?
2006-09-28 20:29
Spiritsnare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shii
As I understand it, the Japanese 「ビジュアル・ノベル」 is a subset of ADV involving full-screen text.
Indeed -- from what I've learned thus far, it's a concept originated from Leaf, who first used the term 'visual novel series'. Within said series are games such as Routes and ToHeart.

Eventually, the phrase 'visual novel' has been corrupted in the US to mean an ADV -- especially what with Hirameki dubbing every single one of their games such.
2006-09-28 14:48
mikey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shii
I classify any game written in a Choose Your Own Adventure style for a good percentage of its gameplay a "visual novel", to distinguish it from the English term "adventure game" (not ADV) which is used for Monkey Island and other old favorites.
I based my classification on the same reasoning - the English meaining of "adventure game" is indeed the point-and-click type. And there's virtually no equivalent of CYOA games, so visual novel is a good term for them. We have IF, but that is inclined to use direct user input, typing words and such.

I like to differ between visual novel adventures and visual novel CYOAs in my personal view, the VN-CYOA being Flood Of Tears, and VN-adventure being Eve Burst Error. They both have the same principle of presentation (text, music, sprite and BG), but the VN-adventure doesn't have branching paths - it has a linear storyline and uses obstacles to hinder your progress - exhausting all conversation options, revisiting places - similar to point-and-clicks where you solve puzzles or talk to people or use items, "clear rooms" before they let you advance. The principle is the same though. There are very little VN-adventures though, as most of the English games are VN-CYOAs or even linear VNs.

In this respect, I'd call Phoenix a VN-adventure, since it's AFAIK linear and you use clues to move forward the trial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shii
As I understand it, the Japanese 「ビジュアル・ノベル」 is a subset of ADV involving full-screen text.
If 「ビジュアル・ノベル」 means visual novel, then it's what I was able to filter out as well.
2006-09-28 14:41
Haeleth I think that's reasonable. There's no need for the English community to slavishly follow Japanese terminology. (Indeed, it doesn't; witness the original meaning the English community has given to "kinetic novel", and the almost complete absence of the term "sound novel" in English.)
2006-09-28 14:21
Shii I classify any game written in a Choose Your Own Adventure style for a good percentage of its gameplay a "visual novel", to distinguish it from the English term "adventure game" (not ADV) which is used for Monkey Island and other old favorites. So, Phoenix Wright would qualify for me.

As I understand it, the Japanese 「ビジュアル・ノベル」 is a subset of ADV involving full-screen text.
2006-09-27 14:55
GreatSaintLouis That's funny, I didn't think the whole 'mech tactical strategy' portion of the Sakura Taisen series counted as '100% dialogue'. Furthermore, there IS narration present in the game through Ookami's point of view, i.e. a first person perspective, in the same vein as (off the top of my head (and bookshelf)) books like Fight Club, The Great Gatsby, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, and The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle. One could also argue that the visual nature of ADV games is a replacement for some of the narration found in a novel describing characters and the surrounding environment. The inclusion of images is its own type of narration, and to describe these things in text would be redundant. See also: comic books and graphic novels.
2006-09-27 14:50
mikey AFAIK the whole term "visual novel" isn't English, its origins are in Japan. One can always argue about the whole "visual" thing, as well as debate over "novel" as opposed to novella etc... So thinking about whether a dialogue-only story is a "novel" is more a literature debate, similarly to the questions whether short stories (or was it shortstories?), which a lot of the games are, can be called novels.

The ADV/VN thing, as far as my info goes, in Japan ADV isn't related to dialogue vs. narrative, it's just the way that the text is displayed on screen. So GS is an ADV, since it's inside a textbox - similarly ST, if the layout isn't Crescendo-ish, should be proof of this.
2006-09-27 14:38
Haeleth Interesting question.

Is, oh, Roth's Deception a novel? (Or any of the numerous other all-dialogue dead-tree novels around.)

What about other non-traditional formats, like the document-collection format (e.g. Sayers' The Documents in the Case), or graphic novels? :)

I think most people would classify Phoenix Wright as an adventure game rather than a visual novel, but that must be more to do with interactivity than absence of narration, given that traditional Western adventure games consisted almost 100% of narration with no dialogue...
2006-09-27 14:28
DragonmasterX The gameplay is pretty much reading, with pretty artwork in the background.
They are generally a mix of dialogue and narration. However, there are some with no narration and are 100% dialogue. Some of these are Gyakuten Saiban and Sakura Taisen. I noticed mk2 lists Sakura Taisen under ADV. But with no narration at all, can these types be considered visual "novels"?

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