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General Discussion Theres a Clannad of AIR-headed Kanon fodder being shot by the Little Busters After Tomoyo on a Planet-arian.

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2010-08-21 12:04
zalas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
If two characters speak in a similar fashion, but one uses 俺 and another uses わたくし, how does one reflect this in English?
If they are both speaking in exactly the same fashion but using those pronouns, then one of them is obviously speaking very strangely. ;)
2010-08-19 16:25
Unregistered
Quote:
Originally Posted by drmchsr0 View Post
Well, the ideal translation strikes a balance between formal and dynamic equivalences to render the translated text as close to the original as possible in terms of meaning and style.

On the matter of style, it's rather hard to replicate, considering that we're translating between two different trains of thought. The only way to ensure the preservation of the style (or something similar) would be to work closely with the original author and involving him or her from the start of the project, even putting said author as a staff member (usually in an advisory position).
Personally, I don't believe style is something that is translatable, or at least a factor that is inherently subjective. If two characters speak in a similar fashion, but one uses 俺 and another uses わたくし, how does one reflect this in English? There's no hard and fast rule you can look up in a dictionary, though many translators like to impart users of informal self-references with a more informal tone throughout the entire sentence.

What about a character who refers to themselves in the third person? You can, if you wish, translate it literally and have the character's English speech remind your readers of Elmo, Gollum, The Hulk and other such habitual illeists rather than the slightly childish nuance it imparts in Japanese (but hey, at least you're being grammatically equivalent!) Or you can have them speak in first person as is more typical in English, in which case by this decision to transform the text, you are already imposing your own 'style' onto the translation. After all, another translator might not agree with your decision.

In either case, the nuance of the original is going to be altered. Either by the stigma of extreme youth or dimwittedness, far in excess of the Japanese one, associated with referring to oneself in the third person in English - or by your decision to avoid this stigma. Translation is a destructive process, and something will be lost no matter what.

I think you stand to lose more in a translation by refusing to deviate from formal equivalence for the purpose of conveying nuance, such as the wider variety of self-references possible in Japanese, that simply cannot be translated. But in the end, that's still opinion. However, it's a fact that the translation will not be equivalent to (and will most likely be significantly inferior to) the original work... so why not go the dynamic route, and try to give it some flourish and literary merit of its very own?


As for working with the authors, the only thing that changes is that they might be considered more qualified to make the stylistic decisions that I identified as necessary above. Proper-permission might have an edge here, being in direct contact with them - but I don't have high hopes the authors will have any useful suggestions on how that girl with a Kansai accent ought to speak in English.

A translation is not the original and can't be the original, though, so does it really matter whose style it has? (So long as it's consistent - the main problem with multiple translators.)
2010-08-19 15:18
drmchsr0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Curiously, many works that are widely considered the finest examples of translation into English - Kaufmann's Faust, the KJV Bible, Hooker's Cyrano, Urquhart's Rabelais, etc - operate on the opposite principle, paying little heed to formal (especially grammatical) equivalence for the sake of reproducing the flourish and magnificence of the original prose in the target language.

A blogger provides a fine example comparing this passage of Faust among three translations. (I actually like Wayne's best, but even I can't defend his translation of Augenblick as 'hour.')

Of course, it's a continuum - if you deliberately tried to maximize dynamic equivalence you'd be rewriting the source work into something unrecognizable, and if you did the opposite, you hardly English be writing not (あなたはまず英語を書いていない; hope I got that right) - and in the end, it's a matter of personal opinion. However, generally the only professionals who value formal equivalence over dynamic equivalence nowadays are those who believe they are working with the literal word of God, in its original Hebrew and Koine Greek.
Well, the ideal translation strikes a balance between formal and dynamic equivalences to render the translated text as close to the original as possible in terms of meaning and style.

But then again, different languages have different needs and techniques.

On the matter of style, it's rather hard to replicate, considering that we're translating between two different trains of thought. The only way to ensure the preservation of the style (or something similar) would be to work closely with the original author and involving him or her from the start of the project, even putting said author as a staff member (usually in an advisory position).

And Biblical translation is a completely different kettle of fish, as compared to translating a visual novel. Even though I see a lot of similarities.
2010-08-19 10:05
Unregistered Curiously, many works that are widely considered the finest examples of translation into English - Kaufmann's Faust, the KJV Bible, Hooker's Cyrano, Urquhart's Rabelais, etc - operate on the opposite principle, paying little heed to formal (especially grammatical) equivalence for the sake of reproducing the flourish and magnificence of the original prose in the target language. In the words of Leonardo Bruni:

Quote:
I am not so timid as to fear accusations of lèse-majesté if I depart a little from the wording while preserving the sense, always avoiding absurdity. This is what Plato in his speeches obliges me to do; being the most elegant of writers in Greek, he will not wish to be lacking in taste in Latin.
A blogger provides a fine example comparing this passage of Faust among three translations. (I actually like Wayne's best, but even I can't defend his translation of Augenblick as 'hour.')

Of course, it's a continuum - if you deliberately tried to maximize dynamic equivalence you'd be rewriting the source work into something unrecognizable, and if you did the opposite, you hardly English be writing not (あなたはまず英語を書いていない; hope I got that right) - and in the end, it's a matter of personal opinion. However, generally the only professionals who value formal equivalence over dynamic equivalence nowadays are those who believe they are working with the literal word of God, in its original Hebrew and Koine Greek.
2010-08-19 04:45
Asceai Ah, but the idea is that this is not the form of editing where people look at the English and turn it into prettier English. It's the form of editing where people look at the English and the Japanese and turn it into better English that better reflects the Japanese. Thus the translation should more closely approach the original text over the process of editing.
2010-08-19 04:22
noname
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asceai View Post
Translation style == translation error. Translations should be transparent. You read it and it's like reading the original work. That's all that should be on your mind- that you're reading the original work. Translation style means you see the effect of the translator on your translation which distracts you from reading the original work.
(´_ゝ`)

I highly doubt there will be any traces of orginal writing style left after you edit the shit out of script. Really.
2010-08-19 04:09
Asceai Translation style == translation error. Translations should be transparent. You read it and it's like reading the original work. That's all that should be on your mind- that you're reading the original work. Translation style means you see the effect of the translator on your translation which distracts you from reading the original work.
2010-08-19 03:39
noname
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asceai View Post
final result through consensus that lacks any real translation style at all
(´_ゝ`)

WHY.
2010-08-19 02:06
Asceai Well, it's not just being translated by a dozen people, it's also being EDITED by a dozen people. The idea is to get a final result through consensus that lacks any real translation style at all - it's just in English. Boring, but it might just be the best way to remove any traces of translator presence from the translation.
2010-08-19 01:51
fujifruit Not that I don't support but..

I'm pretty sure each and everyone of them has a different translation style
and it would be weird seeing a change in 'wording' styles..
Or the translation level suddenly drops -20.
2010-08-19 01:39
Asceai
Quote:
Originally Posted by noname View Post
( ´_ゝ`)

Are you, people, RETARDED?
harsh words!
2010-08-19 00:32
noname
Quote:
Translator: Akira, Asceai, endo602, Enerrene, equilibrium, jankn, Kaens, kyuu, Magedark, Minimoto, Oipo, Vatina
( ´_ゝ`)

Are you, people, RETARDED?
2010-08-16 10:18
Unregistered
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosign View Post
Feuds between fan translators are completely incomprehensible to me.
It could be a lot worse......like the early ROM translation scene.
2010-08-15 04:20
Cosign If I wasn't already with another project I'd join in a heartbeat. My fullest support to you Agilis. Thank you for doing this. This is huge.

A bit disappointed hearing TLwiki people hate on your project (the ones in IRC anyway). Feuds between fan translators are completely incomprehensible to me.
2010-08-09 07:21
Agilis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minimoto View Post
This sounds pretty awesome. I'll help, but probably only a few scripts. (If there are no voices, it's more difficult for me to translate)
That's fine, there's a few other participants that can't commit to more than one or two scripts for time reasons.

Easiest way to join is to sign up for an account on the site, and then go to the t0rama project and open up a New Issue to me so I can add you as a translator. It'll auto-email me, and also email you back after I close the ticket \o/

Otherwise you'd have to find me on irc or something to get me to add, which is more confused.
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