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General Discussion Theres a Clannad of AIR-headed Kanon fodder being shot by the Little Busters After Tomoyo on a Planet-arian.

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Topic Review (Newest First)
2006-11-19 21:46
Back on track Well, anyway, on the bright side, a|together 2006 is almost over, so all that's left is anything that's left of it, then Naricssu 2nd side.... then....

THE REQUEST.

~

I pray this can all be done before the end of 2006.
2006-11-14 23:08
Alan A massive show of support during and following Air's reproduction gave Kanon its opportunity to enjoy similar touchups. If it worked for the anime, it can work for the game.

Should we be contacting Key in support of their approval of Haeleth's translation project, (or of releasing their own fully subtitled version), at anytime in the near future?
2006-10-13 08:54
Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shii
I'd say this is not disheartening but encouraging. This is an important fork in the road for this forum. We need to decide what the right thing to do is with respect to the creators of the game, and Haeleth's detailed explanation is very helpful.
I don't think that "we" can decide anything about this matter, neither do we "need" it.
This forum is populated by friends of the medium "Visual Novel"; many posters do also translate, edit or other jobs around the complex of fansubs, scanlations and game localization. All of them all have their own personal ethics and backgrounds that may differ widely. I don't think we can define "the right thing" at all. And even if we could do this, would it induce a translator to work on something against his own personal ethics?
Haeleth is the translator of Kanon, Haeleth decides. Anything we discuss here is mere sophistry, because we are not in the position to decide about that matter. So "our" ethics are irrelevant as well as mine, may it destroy the VN scene outside of Japan or not.
2006-10-12 21:35
AstCd2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
While I don't know how derivative works apply internationally, in the US...
This may not be true internationally, but given that we're not talking about legalities and the supposed "harm" that it can do, my point remains valid.
I must confess to knowing next to nothing about the US approach, though from what I know of the Japanese copyright law, the 'derivative' protection extends only as far as 'adaptations', which fanfics, doujinshi and other appropriations of characters may or may not constitute in the circumstances.

In any case, it wasn't my intention to detract from your point about the morality of fanfics. Consider it a trivial aside from someone who spends too much time reading law textbooks =P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Creative control is very important. I bet Disney doesn't want their characters seen in anything less than family oriented.
Again, I think it's going beyond morality and into the realms of legality to claim that degree of control. I'm sure most people would agree that an author should have control over how his original work is to be presented, but few would agree to an iron-fisted regime in which creators could control every conceivable depiction of their creations. There's arguably no more substantial a moral interest in censoring something so obviously removed from the true source of the original material than there is in preventing me from going out into the street and reciting dirty limericks about Mickey Mouse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous
My point was not to claim any higher moral ground, but to point out that any discussion of anything that doesn't have clear boundaries is going to have a lot of people angry because they don't agree with or understand the logic behind the boundries someone set. (Emphasis added)
My apologies if this was unclear, but this last paragraph wasn't addressed at you personally (hence the use of 'anyone' rather than 'you'). What I meant was that Haeleth's decision, while undoubtedly controversial, is a difficult one for the masses to criticise on logical terms precisely because it's such a subjective decision involving blurry moral boundaries. Even those who don't agree with him would have to concede that others in the same position wouldn't necessarily make the same decisions as themselves, and those who don't understand the reasoning at all should still understand that the concept of such a decision necessitates that it is personal.

The outcome, of course, is that there are still people out there disappointed with not having a patch, but that's not going to change whether the official line from Haeleth is laziness or an ethical dilemma. My point is simply the one which everyone else has been making from the beginning - people can disagree with the results of the decision and even the reasoning behind it, but they shouldn't fault the fact that it was based in ethics.
2006-10-12 08:25
Shii
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodriguez
If anything, this year's ethical/whatever issues have made the game translating scene even less rewarding than it already was. Some would say it's elitist, but at this stage it's just disheartening. If this means the end of commercial game fan translation, I'd say let it die and move on. Ask for permissions from the doujin guys and translate minigames or demos or whatever you find ethically acceptable from now on. Anything but more "debates".
I'd say this is not disheartening but encouraging. This is an important fork in the road for this forum. We need to decide what the right thing to do is with respect to the creators of the game, and Haeleth's detailed explanation is very helpful.
2006-10-12 07:32
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstCd2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Fan fics, doujins, and the like also provide an interesting parallel. By creating derivative works, they are indeed violating the copyright on the characters.
This is a common misconception. Copyright doesn't protect 'ideas' such as characters but the works themselves. Thus, while copying a substantial chunk of a novel is a breach of copyright, the use of a character from the same novel in an original work would not be. (You may, of course, be committing other intellectual property and trade practice wrongs such as trademark infringement and passing off - but this would depend on the circumstances.)

In contrast, when it comes to song lyrics (or indeed, any other work), a translation is (at least under international treaty) essentially a reproduction of a work and thus an infringement of copyright.
While I don't know how derivative works apply internationally, in the US, derivitive works do indeed carry copyright issues. The term "foxing" refers to the fact that many fan created works were killed by Fox to protect their properties. More recently, a fan made RTS based on Halo was shut down by Microsoft in order so that they may make Halo Wars. The movie version of the Hobbit is also a derivative work on the original novel and is held by Christopher Tolkien which has largely denied the creation of this movie. A translation is a derivative work in the legal definition. And even from a non-legal standpoint, it is not the original script -- it is a person's interpretation of the script in a different language.

This may not be true internationally, but given that we're not talking about legalities and the supposed "harm" that it can do, my point remains valid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstCd2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
And in fact, they can be much worse from an ethical standpoint as they deny the copyright creator creative control, not to mention it may have monetary and trademark concerns.
It's true that creator has no control over what happens in fanfics, but at the same time, the very nature of the medium distances itself from the original work as one fans might regard as 'non-canon'. A translation is arguably different, in that it is still in some sense intended to be a presentation of the original work. As filtered through his own interpretation as his translation inevitably is, I don't think Haeleth would claim to be presenting an entirely new product when his patch is applied to the original game.
Creative control is very important. I bet Disney doesn't want their characters seen in anything less than family oriented. Trademarks are also a recourse against this, but you need to defend trademarks to keep them and copyright on dervative works comes for free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstCd2
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous
It is really hard to draw a line when it comes to ethics and usually the line you draw is rather unsatisfying. I would rather have heard that the project was discontinued/on hold for personal reasons rather than the desire to be ethical.
Surely the very fact that it's difficult to draw objective lines for ethics makes it absurd for anyone to claim the ethical high ground over Haeleth's decision? I might not have come to the same conclusion myself under the same circumstances, but I can hardly say that his decision was unjustified on those grounds.
My point was not to claim any higher moral ground, but to point out that any discussion of anything that doesn't have clear boundaries is going to have a lot of people angry because they don't agree with or understand the logic behind the boundries someone set.
2006-10-12 04:05
Rodriguez
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I would rather have heard that the project was discontinued/on hold for personal reasons rather than the desire to be ethical.
Absolutely. I'd be happier if Haeleth just lied if the statement on the page is what he seriously feels, because it would have spared everyone the "I respect the decision" thing and endless threads about copyright that never solve a thing.

If anything, this year's ethical/whatever issues have made the game translating scene even less rewarding than it already was. Some would say it's elitist, but at this stage it's just disheartening. If this means the end of commercial game fan translation, I'd say let it die and move on. Ask for permissions from the doujin guys and translate minigames or demos or whatever you find ethically acceptable from now on. Anything but more "debates".
2006-10-12 03:00
AstCd2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Fan fics, doujins, and the like also provide an interesting parallel. By creating derivative works, they are indeed violating the copyright on the characters.
This is a common misconception. Copyright doesn't protect 'ideas' such as characters but the works themselves. Thus, while copying a substantial chunk of a novel is a breach of copyright, the use of a character from the same novel in an original work would not be. (You may, of course, be committing other intellectual property and trade practice wrongs such as trademark infringement and passing off - but this would depend on the circumstances.)

In contrast, when it comes to song lyrics (or indeed, any other work), a translation is (at least under international treaty) essentially a reproduction of a work and thus an infringement of copyright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
And in fact, they can be much worse from an ethical standpoint as they deny the copyright creator creative control, not to mention it may have monetary and trademark concerns.
It's true that creator has no control over what happens in fanfics, but at the same time, the very nature of the medium distances itself from the original work as one fans might regard as 'non-canon'. A translation is arguably different, in that it is still in some sense intended to be a presentation of the original work. As filtered through his own interpretation as his translation inevitably is, I don't think Haeleth would claim to be presenting an entirely new product when his patch is applied to the original game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous
It is really hard to draw a line when it comes to ethics and usually the line you draw is rather unsatisfying. I would rather have heard that the project was discontinued/on hold for personal reasons rather than the desire to be ethical.
Surely the very fact that it's difficult to draw objective lines for ethics makes it absurd for anyone to claim the ethical high ground over Haeleth's decision? I might not have come to the same conclusion myself under the same circumstances, but I can hardly say that his decision was unjustified on those grounds.
2006-10-12 00:52
Haeleth is by all means entitled to his decision and I have no right to complain about something that someone would freely choose to do. I would have hoped that the full translation patch would be released, but after years of waiting, I'm no longer that interested in it anymore.

However, I just don't buy the ethical argument. Copyrights is so convoluted and complicated such that there is no reasonable way to have clear ethical boundaries. Is it unethical to distribute fansubs? How about just distributing subtitle files?

Fan fics, doujins, and the like also provide an interesting parallel. By creating derivative works, they are indeed violating the copyright on the characters. And in fact, they can be much worse from an ethical standpoint as they deny the copyright creator creative control, not to mention it may have monetary and trademark concerns. Somehow I doubt though that fan fic authors actively seek permission and I don't think the copyright holders are overly concerned by this; although a few companies watch for derivative material like hawks. Are fan fics unethical? Is it more ethical than a fansub?

How about lyrics? Should a person be able to transcribe lyrics to a song and distribute them? Apparently some recording companies don't think that should be allowed, since they want to sell lyrics themselves. Should we follow the ethical reaction and ask for permision to create a transcript of a song? And made public? Is a translation any different?

It is really hard to draw a line when it comes to ethics and usually the line you draw is rather unsatisfying. I would rather have heard that the project was discontinued/on hold for personal reasons rather than the desire to be ethical.
2006-10-11 05:02
Haeleth
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinity
All Kanon-related activities are on hold until work on altogether and Narcissu Side 2nd has finished. A request for permission might happen then.
Basically, my reasoning is that I wouldn't have been doing any work on Kanon till then anyway, so it's not like anything's being delayed. Contacting Key will be a difficult thing to do, and I want to clear my plate of other stuff before I tackle it.
2006-10-11 01:22
Carl
Quote:
Originally Posted by zalas
Well, that's the thing. If the author made it so personal that only the author would be able to reconstruct the meaning, then there's not that big of a chance of a random reader understanding the meaning, right? As long as you have information on how a typical reader of the original intended audience would reconstruct the meaning, then you would be to a good start.
I think culture is a much more personal thing than that. Part of the joy of films, comics, stories in general, is interacting with someone else's culture, ideas, experiences and feelings. It's how we draw understandings of the wider world without experiencing things first hand. Culture is far too complex and layered a thing to define simply as "understand" or "don't understand".
2006-10-11 00:08
zalas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl
More or less, except I'm not of the view that you can recreate someone else's culture based on drips and drabs. What you don't know, you have to fill with something, be it something roughly analogous from your own culture, something that seems to fit based on the context, or just something you made up. Without a perfect insight into the creators mind, somewhere along the line you're going to have to go from purely passive conversion into something more active, irrespective of whether you like the idea of doing so or not.
Well, that's the thing. If the author made it so personal that only the author would be able to reconstruct the meaning, then there's not that big of a chance of a random reader understanding the meaning, right? As long as you have information on how a typical reader of the original intended audience would reconstruct the meaning, then you would be to a good start.
2006-10-10 09:01
infinity
Quote:
So I take it haeleth has e-mailed Visual Arts/Key some time ago, but has received no response yet?
Read the front page. All Kanon-related activities are on hold until work on altogether and Narcissu Side 2nd has finished. A request for permission might happen then.
2006-10-10 07:45
DragonmasterX So I take it haeleth has e-mailed Visual Arts/Key some time ago, but has received no response yet?
2006-10-10 00:18
Carl
Quote:
Originally Posted by zalas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl
This is exactly it, but I'd love to know how you reconstruct the higher-level cultural entity without using any of your own cultural experiences and understanding.
Not sure why you are asking this, but you reconstruct it by using *what you know* about the writer's cultural experience and environment. They may not be the culture you grew up in, but that doesn't mean you can't learn about it. That is not the same as being in that culture and growing up in it. The more you know about the culture and experiences of the writer, the better you are at producing an accurate translation.
For example, if I'm translating a piece from Japanese to English, I'm surely not going to use my own cultural experiences, because they are mostly American with a splash of Chinese. I should be using what I know about Japanese culture, which I never grew up in and never experienced, to reconstruct the higher meaning entity.
For some reason, I'm getting the feeling that we both are in agreement, but we're using totally incompatible nomenclature to describe our views. ^^;
More or less, except I'm not of the view that you can recreate someone else's culture based on drips and drabs. What you don't know, you have to fill with something, be it something roughly analogous from your own culture, something that seems to fit based on the context, or just something you made up. Without a perfect insight into the creators mind, somewhere along the line you're going to have to go from purely passive conversion into something more active, irrespective of whether you like the idea of doing so or not.
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