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General Discussion Theres a Clannad of AIR-headed Kanon fodder being shot by the Little Busters After Tomoyo on a Planet-arian.

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  #31  
Old 2010-06-23, 08:01
zalas zalas is offline
 
 
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Originally Posted by fujifruit View Post
Thanks for the info guys

@Unregistered great idea man!

Its making me frustrated
Example : (n,n-suf) child; (ね) (n) first sign of Chinese zodiac (The Rat, 11p.m.-1a.m., north, November); SP

Okay so whats the 11pm there for and 1 am,north,november);sp
>_>?
Do yourself a favor and stop using EDICT and EDICT-based dictionaries to learn vocabulary. It'll sometimes lead you down dark alleys where you will get mugged by ambiguity thugs... Try using http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/ instead; type in the word you want and make sure 和英 (Japanese-to-English) is selected. This dictionary will give you definitions and example sentences, which I feel are crucial for understanding new words.
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  #32  
Old 2010-06-23, 12:13
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But I love lists of vague synonyms in lieu of anything approaching a helpful definition!

Seriously, though, EDICT's okay if you just wanna look up a reading quickly or something, I guess, but zalas is pretty much spot on with his suggestion. Anything that gives you an actual example of how to use the word is gonna be a great help.

Oh, and once you get a bit further along, I find that dictionaries specifically targeted to a Japanese audience are way better than anything with English. Not to mention that there are a ton of idioms and such that you won't find in any English dictionary. Since I'm a huge nerd, I like looking up the etymologies of words, too, and you usually won't find those in English either... Of course, I doubt most people are too interested in that sort of thing.

Last edited by Moogy; 2010-06-23 at 12:15.
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  #33  
Old 2010-06-25, 05:13
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The success rate of self-learning Japanese, I'm sure is EXTREMELY low. No manner of tips and tricks will get you to achieve a level of understanding in Japanese without a lot of hard work and time.

Go take a couple years of classes, get yourself stranded in Japan and I'm sure you will be just fine.
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  #34  
Old 2010-06-25, 06:45
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Originally Posted by Shinikenshi View Post
The success rate of self-learning Japanese, I'm sure is EXTREMELY low. No manner of tips and tricks will get you to achieve a level of understanding in Japanese without a lot of hard work and time.

Go take a couple years of classes, get yourself stranded in Japan and I'm sure you will be just fine.
I've heard they only teach proper japanese not slang like most people in japan talk.

O-o
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  #35  
Old 2010-06-25, 06:51
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And a solid understanding of proper Japanese is the surest way to pick up slang...
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  #36  
Old 2010-06-25, 07:10
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aa sempai sempai! I have a simple question.
Instead to remember kanji I more confused with when we read the kanjis right.
like 人 : person, this word can be spell hito, jin, nin, -ri, -to.
I have no actual teacher to teach me nihongo, it's self-taught japan :o
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  #37  
Old 2010-06-25, 08:32
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Find a dictionary that categorizes readings by on-yomi, kun-yomi and name readings. Hito is the on-yomi, used when the kanji is found standalone. Jin and nin are kun-yomi used mostly in compounds, eg. it's the "jin" in "gaikokujin" and "nin" in "ningen". Ri and to are the kanji used exclusively or almost exclusively in names. By the way, Japanese name readings can get mind-bogglingly complex/idiotic (hello, Takigawa Christel), so there's no sense in learning them by heart - most of the time, there'll be furigana to help you.
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  #38  
Old 2010-06-25, 20:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinikenshi View Post
Go take a couple years of classes, get yourself stranded in Japan and I'm sure you will be just fine.
This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fujifruit View Post
I've heard they only teach proper japanese not slang like most people in japan talk.
Actually, I've heard the opposite. There's a reason they teach you polite Japanese in classes and not slang. Anime and games are not exactly representative in this regard.
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  #39  
Old 2010-06-25, 20:42
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Originally Posted by Asceai View Post
1. learn hiragana
2. learn katakana
3. learn some simple grammar and common kanji
4. read eroge

As for which kanji to learn, well, I dunno. I recommend these:
子一俺人言見気出手思前中何分日私間上通美
大目事今女生僕音時自真先服景絵感理体香明
行樹方無常部本立顔笑下来動話入面小名正後
合当声心奈知夜少彼度背直持表雪意口場菜身
葉力聞制屋也全二向物情変和那様会不愛馬回

but really, any guide should sort of give you fairly good starting kanji

As for how to learn kanji, well, it's a good idea to copypaste it into wiktionary and look at the definition and readings. Also good to copypaste it into wwwjdic and also into the wwwjdic Example Search to see how it is used - all of the starting kanji I listed above should be used in examples as they are very common, but some of those listed below may not be. You may also find it helpful to come up with mnemonics for matching a kanji against its meaning / readings.

and once you're finished with those kanji, learn these:
学食男込空違長考月同取開付味実悪切祐外地最新的所者用室主由良待戦白花強着優佳足介
乃画確消覚作指引好年家貴落内里達頭返純終都桃代誰然風性近輩止黒魔示教梨衣深死結飛
定突左村振早高姿以桜楽志相始別徹続転陣平色初解雅視胸選光殺世神対多帰張遠道田戻天
文想決右怒仕司機過次界希朝問水元去起校困呼残春公久歩姉関君野息発陽撃可使他線重流
受信更苦歌果緒総夏痛兄首走宮夫数嫌暗現郎普命応要茶成触赤驚山腕鈴修若夢抜必昼員原
反配未姫能勝波状賢父親押安丈腰失秋園置静演透電調瞬冬速構夕火連薫離放母妙休絶抱再
伝記組番書路五三勢差択依晃剣精化我微駆寝琴血進店熱願得金千智法丸肉閉激輔京枝太逃
鳴答識業在打浮特麗照態町欲条液認段拓倒晶羽素題具木奏準追震守凪悲吾坂点寄紀保忍敵
冷渚望咲穂紗断限助車効加椎王恥座満影奥存半吸泣章嬉徒麻器十廊報眼両舞快形急弾鳥備
鬼処佐期隠喜恐温莉端七闘肢椿友士活有破負昨青横乗裕基髪怖集雄供遅予亮居散住渡頼古
術任苗紅忘駄雛広朱川説晴師余軽惑揺黙警腹告計国帯裏瑠飲街位格興像為鷹探耳爪兵清弱
杏単訳台経唇標海号囲射係運件吐尚舌許了握幸藍片頬眠買淫判刀傷掛送完肩程草頃難萌周
降交御替共約闇灯念細似読門浩移遊彩質語隼礼甘伸刺危故妹議装仲越階響井際利染英朋字
星藤束壁栞客側況病瀬異奴秘途乳辺健疲義談容攻料割飯迷蔵壊乱雨第刻恋窓涙怪締島頑蛍
登憶斗薄倉求悟恭接呆疑頷観百矢慌瑞武描叩図絡脱燈根庭逆注撫鹿役敷混練嘘習之吹邪瞳
膣席族済竜設嬢東弁菊彦謝試折森汎察式互凛犯楓序暴踏聖筋焼苺詰璃験沈固沢包騎量巻極
央紙翠芽収携伽投令治誘衛局論綺堂尻葵須届雷寒軍繰曲参叫娘支永恵掴澄塚濡銃博寂密昔
布並茉城祭衝爆洋団務退映殿品社柔築授護石慢除霧陰捨責減霊凄慣抗扉肌育案例操短悩非
復裂漏険隣汚呟沙襲否玲増宅申技鼻簡館停鉄鷲角毎迎繋仮床袋巴杯頂棒緊証象罪荒四脳領
悔値圧整童研尽勉奇写遥華工土避幕末騒戸院敗滅狂類与既焦芳匂崩納季雑屈辛伏払板皆等
迫跳犬奪眺擦幽汗覗翼底個猫遣維留盛冗距睨己権氏銀万超慎翡蓬岡宗睦改唯種滑穴輪哀耐
捕陸竹究委適円統秒労球綾臓境圭害低隙跡洗股谷傾酷溜松溢房独厳暮比河史造救箱奮防枚
蘭八帆殴舐甲換宿膝売雲寿郁幼珠科源吉官喉氷西崎将寺悧充争龍斎老寧歯薬噛査船亞酒譲
峰舎歳民派従北垂玉働拳斜型丁六珍鏡蹴縁旦呂導慮印硬骨狙至露検鞠埋勘煙価市旅欠産訊
雰羅巡岐栄臭幾磨梓弟抵秀織商宏狭南曜虫管桐禁刃呪誤積蝶潰貰宇怯展挿獅担机属鍵署糸

P.S: people who read the JAST USA forums may find this post sort of familiar

EDIT: Oh, and something I can't stress enough- in fact, this is the most important part of this entire post:

Go from steps 1-3 to 4 as quickly as possible. You need to be enjoying yourself if you want to learn a language, and eroge is the most enjoyable thing available in Japanese so you can't go wrong with it. Find simple eroge, look around for free works, dlsite stuff etc., preferably voiced and get learning. Hiragana, katakana and basic grammar/kanji are a very small fraction of the effort involved in learning kanji, but you need to start somewhere before you can start reading stuff you like. So honestly, you could probably boil my whole post down to:
1. Read eroge
I think this is a really helpful post. Although I'm not 100% perfect in Japanese, I can say that this is a pretty good guide. Japanese classes can help, but only to a certain extent and only the basics. I also want to mention that writing them out also helps tons as well. If you get used to writing out the patterns and stuff, you will learn more quickly.
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  #40  
Old 2010-06-28, 05:38
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Here's how I learned Japanese. I didn't take any classes.

First I've studied Japanese for Busy People I-III. These are easy to understand and give you grammar and basic vocabulary. Then I watched lots of dramas and animes to increase my vocabulary. Then I started playing galgames. You don't need to know any kanji to be able to read them. There are great tools that automatically insert furigana into kanji. Search for "Furigana Inserter" or "Translation Aggregator". Furigana are small characters that explain how to read a word.

You certainly don't need any classes. The most important thing is to have fun during the process. Most people give up because they are not having fun. Learning kanji the hardest thing for most people, that's what makes Japanese so hard. But if you aren't going to write Japanese, then you don't need to learn them. As I said there are great tools for reading Japanese.
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  #41  
Old 2010-06-28, 13:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Here's how I learned Japanese. I didn't take any classes.

First I've studied Japanese for Busy People I-III. These are easy to understand and give you grammar and basic vocabulary. Then I watched lots of dramas and animes to increase my vocabulary. Then I started playing galgames. You don't need to know any kanji to be able to read them. There are great tools that automatically insert furigana into kanji. Search for "Furigana Inserter" or "Translation Aggregator". Furigana are small characters that explain how to read a word.

You certainly don't need any classes. The most important thing is to have fun during the process. Most people give up because they are not having fun. Learning kanji the hardest thing for most people, that's what makes Japanese so hard. But if you aren't going to write Japanese, then you don't need to learn them. As I said there are great tools for reading Japanese.
Sounds simple I'll try that.
Just about how long did it take to be able to read a vn?
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  #42  
Old 2010-06-28, 15:28
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Originally Posted by fujifruit View Post
Sounds simple I'll try that.
Just about how long did it take to be able to read a vn?
That's hard to say because I only started playing in Japanese after a long period of "learning". As I said I first watched a lot of Japanese movies, animes and dramas with English subtitles. It was fun and I learned a lot. I also first played through good English translated galgames. Again, I had fun and learned a lot.

I just think, that you shouldn't worry about the time it will take. Does it really matter, as long as you have fun? Of course you can start playing games as soon as you want. You should start with simple games, that have simple conversations. It was hard in the beginning, mostly because my vocabulary was small and I had to look up most words, but still it was fun and I continued. With every game my Japanese improved.

I also learned English by playing PC games, so was 99% sure that it would also work for Japanese.
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  #43  
Old 2010-06-28, 16:25
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
That's hard to say because I only started playing in Japanese after a long period of "learning". As I said I first watched a lot of Japanese movies, animes and dramas with English subtitles. It was fun and I learned a lot. I also first played through good English translated galgames. Again, I had fun and learned a lot.

I just think, that you shouldn't worry about the time it will take. Does it really matter, as long as you have fun? Of course you can start playing games as soon as you want. You should start with simple games, that have simple conversations. It was hard in the beginning, mostly because my vocabulary was small and I had to look up most words, but still it was fun and I continued. With every game my Japanese improved.

I also learned English by playing PC games, so was 99% sure that it would also work for Japanese.
What did you use to look words up?
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  #44  
Old 2010-06-28, 16:52
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
You certainly don't need any classes. The most important thing is to have fun during the process. Most people give up because they are not having fun. Learning kanji the hardest thing for most people, that's what makes Japanese so hard. But if you aren't going to write Japanese, then you don't need to learn them. As I said there are great tools for reading Japanese.
Furigana is a good way to learn to recognize kanji for words you already know, but I don't recommend surviving on them. Eventually, you'll want to read things like images and books that don't have furigana, and there are no transliteration tools for those unless you scan and OCR. Way too much effort every single time you want to read.

Learning kanji is difficult, but it's really worth it. It's not necessarily tedious, either; memorizing word lists is boring, but writing characters on Post-Its and sticking those things to the relevant objects is a lot more fun. Also, reading will be a lot smoother if you can recognize kanji.

BUT BEFORE YOU WORRY ABOUT THIS, learn katakana and hiragana first. ;)

Unregistered has a point, though, with the having fun thing. If you're not having fun, you won't learn the language. Find friends who are also learning Japanese and study together.
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  #45  
Old 2010-06-29, 02:07
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What did you use to look words up?
"Furigana Inserter" is a Firefox add-on, so you can use Rikaichan (another add-on) to look up words, but it makes use of the EDICT dictionary. I think it is better to use a dictionary other than EDICT, one that has usage examples. There's also a search bar in Firefox, that can be used to look up words. Someone recommended dic.yahoo.com and you can add this site to Firefox.

"Translation Aggregator" also makes use of EDICT dictionaries.

There is also Babylon, which makes it easy to look up any word on the screen, but I don't know how good it's dictionaries are.
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