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General Discussion Theres a Clannad of AIR-headed Kanon fodder being shot by the Little Busters After Tomoyo on a Planet-arian.

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  #1  
Old 2010-06-20, 13:20
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fujifruit fujifruit is offline
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Default Best way to learn japanese?

So I can't depend on fan translations because most of them are dropped or the ones getting translated never interest me..

So whats the best way to learn japanese?
I'm willing to pay<If that somehow help..
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  #2  
Old 2010-06-20, 13:38
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1. learn hiragana
2. learn katakana
3. learn some simple grammar and common kanji
4. read eroge

As for which kanji to learn, well, I dunno. I recommend these:
子一俺人言見気出手思前中何分日私間上通美
大目事今女生僕音時自真先服景絵感理体香明
行樹方無常部本立顔笑下来動話入面小名正後
合当声心奈知夜少彼度背直持表雪意口場菜身
葉力聞制屋也全二向物情変和那様会不愛馬回

but really, any guide should sort of give you fairly good starting kanji

As for how to learn kanji, well, it's a good idea to copypaste it into wiktionary and look at the definition and readings. Also good to copypaste it into wwwjdic and also into the wwwjdic Example Search to see how it is used - all of the starting kanji I listed above should be used in examples as they are very common, but some of those listed below may not be. You may also find it helpful to come up with mnemonics for matching a kanji against its meaning / readings.

and once you're finished with those kanji, learn these:
学食男込空違長考月同取開付味実悪切祐外地最新的所者用室主由良待戦白花強着優佳足介
乃画確消覚作指引好年家貴落内里達頭返純終都桃代誰然風性近輩止黒魔示教梨衣深死結飛
定突左村振早高姿以桜楽志相始別徹続転陣平色初解雅視胸選光殺世神対多帰張遠道田戻天
文想決右怒仕司機過次界希朝問水元去起校困呼残春公久歩姉関君野息発陽撃可使他線重流
受信更苦歌果緒総夏痛兄首走宮夫数嫌暗現郎普命応要茶成触赤驚山腕鈴修若夢抜必昼員原
反配未姫能勝波状賢父親押安丈腰失秋園置静演透電調瞬冬速構夕火連薫離放母妙休絶抱再
伝記組番書路五三勢差択依晃剣精化我微駆寝琴血進店熱願得金千智法丸肉閉激輔京枝太逃
鳴答識業在打浮特麗照態町欲条液認段拓倒晶羽素題具木奏準追震守凪悲吾坂点寄紀保忍敵
冷渚望咲穂紗断限助車効加椎王恥座満影奥存半吸泣章嬉徒麻器十廊報眼両舞快形急弾鳥備
鬼処佐期隠喜恐温莉端七闘肢椿友士活有破負昨青横乗裕基髪怖集雄供遅予亮居散住渡頼古
術任苗紅忘駄雛広朱川説晴師余軽惑揺黙警腹告計国帯裏瑠飲街位格興像為鷹探耳爪兵清弱
杏単訳台経唇標海号囲射係運件吐尚舌許了握幸藍片頬眠買淫判刀傷掛送完肩程草頃難萌周
降交御替共約闇灯念細似読門浩移遊彩質語隼礼甘伸刺危故妹議装仲越階響井際利染英朋字
星藤束壁栞客側況病瀬異奴秘途乳辺健疲義談容攻料割飯迷蔵壊乱雨第刻恋窓涙怪締島頑蛍
登憶斗薄倉求悟恭接呆疑頷観百矢慌瑞武描叩図絡脱燈根庭逆注撫鹿役敷混練嘘習之吹邪瞳
膣席族済竜設嬢東弁菊彦謝試折森汎察式互凛犯楓序暴踏聖筋焼苺詰璃験沈固沢包騎量巻極
央紙翠芽収携伽投令治誘衛局論綺堂尻葵須届雷寒軍繰曲参叫娘支永恵掴澄塚濡銃博寂密昔
布並茉城祭衝爆洋団務退映殿品社柔築授護石慢除霧陰捨責減霊凄慣抗扉肌育案例操短悩非
復裂漏険隣汚呟沙襲否玲増宅申技鼻簡館停鉄鷲角毎迎繋仮床袋巴杯頂棒緊証象罪荒四脳領
悔値圧整童研尽勉奇写遥華工土避幕末騒戸院敗滅狂類与既焦芳匂崩納季雑屈辛伏払板皆等
迫跳犬奪眺擦幽汗覗翼底個猫遣維留盛冗距睨己権氏銀万超慎翡蓬岡宗睦改唯種滑穴輪哀耐
捕陸竹究委適円統秒労球綾臓境圭害低隙跡洗股谷傾酷溜松溢房独厳暮比河史造救箱奮防枚
蘭八帆殴舐甲換宿膝売雲寿郁幼珠科源吉官喉氷西崎将寺悧充争龍斎老寧歯薬噛査船亞酒譲
峰舎歳民派従北垂玉働拳斜型丁六珍鏡蹴縁旦呂導慮印硬骨狙至露検鞠埋勘煙価市旅欠産訊
雰羅巡岐栄臭幾磨梓弟抵秀織商宏狭南曜虫管桐禁刃呪誤積蝶潰貰宇怯展挿獅担机属鍵署糸

P.S: people who read the JAST USA forums may find this post sort of familiar

EDIT: Oh, and something I can't stress enough- in fact, this is the most important part of this entire post:

Go from steps 1-3 to 4 as quickly as possible. You need to be enjoying yourself if you want to learn a language, and eroge is the most enjoyable thing available in Japanese so you can't go wrong with it. Find simple eroge, look around for free works, dlsite stuff etc., preferably voiced and get learning. Hiragana, katakana and basic grammar/kanji are a very small fraction of the effort involved in learning kanji, but you need to start somewhere before you can start reading stuff you like. So honestly, you could probably boil my whole post down to:
1. Read eroge
__________________
www.erogenews.com

Last edited by Asceai; 2010-06-20 at 13:43.
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  #3  
Old 2010-06-20, 14:06
fujifruit's Avatar
fujifruit fujifruit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asceai View Post
1. learn hiragana
2. learn katakana
3. learn some simple grammar and common kanji
4. read eroge

As for which kanji to learn, well, I dunno. I recommend these:
子一俺人言見気出手思前中何分日私間上通美
大目事今女生僕音時自真先服景絵感理体香明
行樹方無常部本立顔笑下来動話入面小名正後
合当声心奈知夜少彼度背直持表雪意口場菜身
葉力聞制屋也全二向物情変和那様会不愛馬回

but really, any guide should sort of give you fairly good starting kanji

As for how to learn kanji, well, it's a good idea to copypaste it into wiktionary and look at the definition and readings. Also good to copypaste it into wwwjdic and also into the wwwjdic Example Search to see how it is used - all of the starting kanji I listed above should be used in examples as they are very common, but some of those listed below may not be. You may also find it helpful to come up with mnemonics for matching a kanji against its meaning / readings.

and once you're finished with those kanji, learn these:
学食男込空違長考月同取開付味実悪切祐外地最新的所者用室主由良待戦白花強着優佳足介
乃画確消覚作指引好年家貴落内里達頭返純終都桃代誰然風性近輩止黒魔示教梨衣深死結飛
定突左村振早高姿以桜楽志相始別徹続転陣平色初解雅視胸選光殺世神対多帰張遠道田戻天
文想決右怒仕司機過次界希朝問水元去起校困呼残春公久歩姉関君野息発陽撃可使他線重流
受信更苦歌果緒総夏痛兄首走宮夫数嫌暗現郎普命応要茶成触赤驚山腕鈴修若夢抜必昼員原
反配未姫能勝波状賢父親押安丈腰失秋園置静演透電調瞬冬速構夕火連薫離放母妙休絶抱再
伝記組番書路五三勢差択依晃剣精化我微駆寝琴血進店熱願得金千智法丸肉閉激輔京枝太逃
鳴答識業在打浮特麗照態町欲条液認段拓倒晶羽素題具木奏準追震守凪悲吾坂点寄紀保忍敵
冷渚望咲穂紗断限助車効加椎王恥座満影奥存半吸泣章嬉徒麻器十廊報眼両舞快形急弾鳥備
鬼処佐期隠喜恐温莉端七闘肢椿友士活有破負昨青横乗裕基髪怖集雄供遅予亮居散住渡頼古
術任苗紅忘駄雛広朱川説晴師余軽惑揺黙警腹告計国帯裏瑠飲街位格興像為鷹探耳爪兵清弱
杏単訳台経唇標海号囲射係運件吐尚舌許了握幸藍片頬眠買淫判刀傷掛送完肩程草頃難萌周
降交御替共約闇灯念細似読門浩移遊彩質語隼礼甘伸刺危故妹議装仲越階響井際利染英朋字
星藤束壁栞客側況病瀬異奴秘途乳辺健疲義談容攻料割飯迷蔵壊乱雨第刻恋窓涙怪締島頑蛍
登憶斗薄倉求悟恭接呆疑頷観百矢慌瑞武描叩図絡脱燈根庭逆注撫鹿役敷混練嘘習之吹邪瞳
膣席族済竜設嬢東弁菊彦謝試折森汎察式互凛犯楓序暴踏聖筋焼苺詰璃験沈固沢包騎量巻極
央紙翠芽収携伽投令治誘衛局論綺堂尻葵須届雷寒軍繰曲参叫娘支永恵掴澄塚濡銃博寂密昔
布並茉城祭衝爆洋団務退映殿品社柔築授護石慢除霧陰捨責減霊凄慣抗扉肌育案例操短悩非
復裂漏険隣汚呟沙襲否玲増宅申技鼻簡館停鉄鷲角毎迎繋仮床袋巴杯頂棒緊証象罪荒四脳領
悔値圧整童研尽勉奇写遥華工土避幕末騒戸院敗滅狂類与既焦芳匂崩納季雑屈辛伏払板皆等
迫跳犬奪眺擦幽汗覗翼底個猫遣維留盛冗距睨己権氏銀万超慎翡蓬岡宗睦改唯種滑穴輪哀耐
捕陸竹究委適円統秒労球綾臓境圭害低隙跡洗股谷傾酷溜松溢房独厳暮比河史造救箱奮防枚
蘭八帆殴舐甲換宿膝売雲寿郁幼珠科源吉官喉氷西崎将寺悧充争龍斎老寧歯薬噛査船亞酒譲
峰舎歳民派従北垂玉働拳斜型丁六珍鏡蹴縁旦呂導慮印硬骨狙至露検鞠埋勘煙価市旅欠産訊
雰羅巡岐栄臭幾磨梓弟抵秀織商宏狭南曜虫管桐禁刃呪誤積蝶潰貰宇怯展挿獅担机属鍵署糸

P.S: people who read the JAST USA forums may find this post sort of familiar

EDIT: Oh, and something I can't stress enough- in fact, this is the most important part of this entire post:

Go from steps 1-3 to 4 as quickly as possible. You need to be enjoying yourself if you want to learn a language, and eroge is the most enjoyable thing available in Japanese so you can't go wrong with it. Find simple eroge, look around for free works, dlsite stuff etc., preferably voiced and get learning. Hiragana, katakana and basic grammar/kanji are a very small fraction of the effort involved in learning kanji, but you need to start somewhere before you can start reading stuff you like. So honestly, you could probably boil my whole post down to:
1. Read eroge
I'll get started next time I go to my local book stores (Not always around my computer which sucks ..)

I was also thinking of buying childrens books in japanese XP

one thing thats makes me sad is the fact it will take year till I will be able to read eroges (Big words and such O-o.)

Alice parade and flyable hearts here I come!(No pun intended)
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  #4  
Old 2010-06-20, 14:12
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I recommend taking a few years of actual Japanese courses beforehand so that you don't end up with weird misconceptions of the language.

Not that Asceai's method isn't solid (lord knows I've learned more vocabulary, if nothing else, from eroge than I've ever learned in a classroom), but I think it helps to have more of a "foundation" before diving straight into eroge, especially since they're really not representative of the Japanese language in general.
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Old 2010-06-20, 14:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogy View Post
I recommend taking a few years of actual Japanese courses beforehand so that you don't end up with weird misconceptions of the language.

Not that Asceai's method isn't solid (lord knows I've learned more vocabulary, if nothing else, from eroge than I've ever learned in a classroom), but I think it helps to have more of a "foundation" before diving straight into eroge, especially since they're really not representative of the Japanese language in general.
Before I can learn anything from eroge I have to learn the basics XD (I guess thats obvious..).

About the classes no one around here teaches japanese just spanish and latin.


Oh god looking at those characters >_> going to be hard

Last edited by fujifruit; 2010-06-20 at 14:41.
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  #6  
Old 2010-06-20, 14:48
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The method I outlined was basically a simplification of how I learned the language myself, since I've not taken courses- I'm a bit suspicious of classes because I've heard people talking about taking them, how they like to start by teaching a whole heap of 'catchphrases' rather than starting with proper foundations, how even people who have taken a whole year of Japanese class have trouble reading even very simple sentences. I'm sure they vary in quality though.

It's, of course, helpful to read a number of different things as well as eroge- like Moogy said, they are not exactly representative. Once you've gotten your start with eroge, it can be useful to read stuff like web pages, technical manuals etc. to gain a better grasp of this sort of thing. Also, try and maintain a fairly solid 'high-level' understanding of the language - go read the Wikipedia article on 'Japanese language' for example. You'll get conflicting information at times but it should do you a world of good.

By the way, the kanji I listed above are ordered based on frequency within eroge (so 子 is the most frequently used kanji in eroge, 一 is the second most frequent, 俺 is the third most frequent and so on). If you take a Japanese class, for example, you'll probably learn numerals (一 二 三 四 五 六 七 八 九 十) as your first kanji. While these kanji are important as well as easy to learn, they aren't all at the front of my list because I don't see them as being any more important than things like 子 or 俺- most written text uses arabic numerals for numbers anyway!
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Last edited by Asceai; 2010-06-20 at 15:03.
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  #7  
Old 2010-06-20, 15:04
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If you can't take Japanese classes, I highly recommend using textbooks or at least books that will let you get a solid grammar foundation. Learn the language well enough to be able to read, write, and speak it comfortably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fujifruit View Post
Oh god looking at those characters >_> going to be hard
Asceai's post makes them look especially intimidating, but they really aren't that bad. Learn them in small batches.

When you get to the kanji, make sure you learn the stroke order too. Don't be a lazy prat like me who writes them all wacky because I didn't bother with stroke order beforehand. >_>;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asceai View Post
The method I outlined was basically a simplification of how I learned the language myself, since I've not taken courses- I'm a bit suspicious of classes because I've heard people talking about taking them, how they like to start by teaching a whole heap of 'catchphrases' rather than starting with proper foundations, how even people who have taken a whole year of Japanese class have trouble reading even very simple sentences. I'm sure they vary in quality though.
Were these private classes?
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Old 2010-06-20, 15:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asceai View Post
I'm a bit suspicious of classes because I've heard people talking about taking them, how they like to start by teaching a whole heap of 'catchphrases' rather than starting with proper foundations, how even people who have taken a whole year of Japanese class have trouble reading even very simple sentences.
It depends on the curriculum. At Stanford, you get your choice of conversational Japanese, normal Japanese and "whoa hardcore" Japanese (which gives you a more solid foundation but you learn how to speak and read real sentences later). As long as the classes aren't teaching you the wrong stuff, and you supplement the classes with your own effort outside of class, you should be well on your way to learning Japanese. I've only studied on my own and it took me probably around seven years to get to the conversational level of a third-year student (but I bet I can read eroge faster <_<).
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  #9  
Old 2010-06-20, 15:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalas View Post
It depends on the curriculum. At Stanford, you get your choice of conversational Japanese, normal Japanese and "whoa hardcore" Japanese (which gives you a more solid foundation but you learn how to speak and read real sentences later). As long as the classes aren't teaching you the wrong stuff, and you supplement the classes with your own effort outside of class, you should be well on your way to learning Japanese. I've only studied on my own and it took me probably around seven years to get to the conversational level of a third-year student (but I bet I can read eroge faster <_<).
7 years oh my...
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Old 2010-06-20, 20:04
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People learn at different rates,

When i went to japan last summer I was capable of communicating with the natives on arrival after only 1 year of in school study. I did the first japanese Rosetta stone program, and watched 2 or 3 animes raw, and aside from random things and years of watching subtitled anime, thats all the studying i had, but i was able converse far better than any of the 2nd year students that went with me.

A friend of mine that had lived in Japan for a year at that point (along with years of study and a study abroad) said that disregarding vocabulary my speaking skills were roughly equal to his.

I think raw anime and before that subtitled anime helped me get the ability to comprehend conversations easier. Though the Japanese classes allowed me to put together everything that i had learned subconsciously. I think a combination of absorbing the language semi naturally by watching/reading media combined with more official lessons is the best way way to learn the language.

I strongly recommend watching card captor sakura raw, it was
so far the easiest to understand of what i have watched and is also a famously good anime.
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Old 2010-06-20, 22:07
zalas zalas is offline
 
 
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That said, it look me less time to pick up enough Japanese to read Kanon than for the Kanon translation to finish <_<;
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  #12  
Old 2010-06-20, 23:20
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As for learning Kanji, I found the "Remember the Kanji" book and this website very useful:
http://kanji.koohii.com/
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Old 2010-06-21, 06:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asceai View Post
1. learn hiragana
2. learn katakana
3. learn some simple grammar and common kanji
4. read eroge

As for which kanji to learn, well, I dunno. I recommend these:
子一俺人言見気出手思前中何分日私間上通美
大目事今女生僕音時自真先服景絵感理体香明
行樹方無常部本立顔笑下来動話入面小名正後
合当声心奈知夜少彼度背直持表雪意口場菜身
葉力聞制屋也全二向物情変和那様会不愛馬回

but really, any guide should sort of give you fairly good starting kanji

As for how to learn kanji, well, it's a good idea to copypaste it into wiktionary and look at the definition and readings. Also good to copypaste it into wwwjdic and also into the wwwjdic Example Search to see how it is used - all of the starting kanji I listed above should be used in examples as they are very common, but some of those listed below may not be. You may also find it helpful to come up with mnemonics for matching a kanji against its meaning / readings.

and once you're finished with those kanji, learn these:
学食男込空違長考月同取開付味実悪切祐外地最新的所者用室主由良待戦白花強着優佳足介
乃画確消覚作指引好年家貴落内里達頭返純終都桃代誰然風性近輩止黒魔示教梨衣深死結飛
定突左村振早高姿以桜楽志相始別徹続転陣平色初解雅視胸選光殺世神対多帰張遠道田戻天
文想決右怒仕司機過次界希朝問水元去起校困呼残春公久歩姉関君野息発陽撃可使他線重流
受信更苦歌果緒総夏痛兄首走宮夫数嫌暗現郎普命応要茶成触赤驚山腕鈴修若夢抜必昼員原
反配未姫能勝波状賢父親押安丈腰失秋園置静演透電調瞬冬速構夕火連薫離放母妙休絶抱再
伝記組番書路五三勢差択依晃剣精化我微駆寝琴血進店熱願得金千智法丸肉閉激輔京枝太逃
鳴答識業在打浮特麗照態町欲条液認段拓倒晶羽素題具木奏準追震守凪悲吾坂点寄紀保忍敵
冷渚望咲穂紗断限助車効加椎王恥座満影奥存半吸泣章嬉徒麻器十廊報眼両舞快形急弾鳥備
鬼処佐期隠喜恐温莉端七闘肢椿友士活有破負昨青横乗裕基髪怖集雄供遅予亮居散住渡頼古
術任苗紅忘駄雛広朱川説晴師余軽惑揺黙警腹告計国帯裏瑠飲街位格興像為鷹探耳爪兵清弱
杏単訳台経唇標海号囲射係運件吐尚舌許了握幸藍片頬眠買淫判刀傷掛送完肩程草頃難萌周
降交御替共約闇灯念細似読門浩移遊彩質語隼礼甘伸刺危故妹議装仲越階響井際利染英朋字
星藤束壁栞客側況病瀬異奴秘途乳辺健疲義談容攻料割飯迷蔵壊乱雨第刻恋窓涙怪締島頑蛍
登憶斗薄倉求悟恭接呆疑頷観百矢慌瑞武描叩図絡脱燈根庭逆注撫鹿役敷混練嘘習之吹邪瞳
膣席族済竜設嬢東弁菊彦謝試折森汎察式互凛犯楓序暴踏聖筋焼苺詰璃験沈固沢包騎量巻極
央紙翠芽収携伽投令治誘衛局論綺堂尻葵須届雷寒軍繰曲参叫娘支永恵掴澄塚濡銃博寂密昔
布並茉城祭衝爆洋団務退映殿品社柔築授護石慢除霧陰捨責減霊凄慣抗扉肌育案例操短悩非
復裂漏険隣汚呟沙襲否玲増宅申技鼻簡館停鉄鷲角毎迎繋仮床袋巴杯頂棒緊証象罪荒四脳領
悔値圧整童研尽勉奇写遥華工土避幕末騒戸院敗滅狂類与既焦芳匂崩納季雑屈辛伏払板皆等
迫跳犬奪眺擦幽汗覗翼底個猫遣維留盛冗距睨己権氏銀万超慎翡蓬岡宗睦改唯種滑穴輪哀耐
捕陸竹究委適円統秒労球綾臓境圭害低隙跡洗股谷傾酷溜松溢房独厳暮比河史造救箱奮防枚
蘭八帆殴舐甲換宿膝売雲寿郁幼珠科源吉官喉氷西崎将寺悧充争龍斎老寧歯薬噛査船亞酒譲
峰舎歳民派従北垂玉働拳斜型丁六珍鏡蹴縁旦呂導慮印硬骨狙至露検鞠埋勘煙価市旅欠産訊
雰羅巡岐栄臭幾磨梓弟抵秀織商宏狭南曜虫管桐禁刃呪誤積蝶潰貰宇怯展挿獅担机属鍵署糸

P.S: people who read the JAST USA forums may find this post sort of familiar

EDIT: Oh, and something I can't stress enough- in fact, this is the most important part of this entire post:

Go from steps 1-3 to 4 as quickly as possible. You need to be enjoying yourself if you want to learn a language, and eroge is the most enjoyable thing available in Japanese so you can't go wrong with it. Find simple eroge, look around for free works, dlsite stuff etc., preferably voiced and get learning. Hiragana, katakana and basic grammar/kanji are a very small fraction of the effort involved in learning kanji, but you need to start somewhere before you can start reading stuff you like. So honestly, you could probably boil my whole post down to:
1. Read eroge
Hmm any site where I can learn about hiragana
and katakana?

Seeing how most words have no direct translation in english this is going to be hard...T_T
(Is overwhelmed)

Last edited by fujifruit; 2010-06-21 at 07:01.
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Old 2010-06-21, 12:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fujifruit View Post
Seeing how most words have no direct translation in english this is going to be hard...T_T
(Is overwhelmed)
You'd be surprised how many words have a direct translation. Take a look at any Japanese<->English dictionary.

"Untranslatable" at the word level is relatively rare unless you go out of your way to look for them. The differences in mapping the languages are usually either in the shades of meaning/usage scenarios or more commonly an weird mismatch in terminology that needs some footnoting. (e.g. you're not likely able to understand what a 'cram school' is even if you saw it in a dictionary).

Things get more complex when you raise the microscope up to sentence level or beyond naturally, but scaring yourself into inaction over some false notion that words don't have a direct translation is self defeating.
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Old 2010-06-21, 13:04
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Originally Posted by Agilis View Post
You'd be surprised how many words have a direct translation. Take a look at any Japanese<->English dictionary.

"Untranslatable" at the word level is relatively rare unless you go out of your way to look for them. The differences in mapping the languages are usually either in the shades of meaning/usage scenarios or more commonly an weird mismatch in terminology that needs some footnoting. (e.g. you're not likely able to understand what a 'cram school' is even if you saw it in a dictionary).

Things get more complex when you raise the microscope up to sentence level or beyond naturally, but scaring yourself into inaction over some false notion that words don't have a direct translation is self defeating.
I'm also bad at remembering things I'm just making things harder for myself lol..

Last edited by fujifruit; 2010-06-21 at 13:07.
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