gemot encubed  

Go Back   gemot encubed > Gemot > General Discussion

General Discussion Theres a Clannad of AIR-headed Kanon fodder being shot by the Little Busters After Tomoyo on a Planet-arian.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 2008-05-28, 15:34
Shinikenshi's Avatar
Shinikenshi Shinikenshi is offline
Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: San Diego, CA (USA)
Posts: 37
Send a message via AIM to Shinikenshi Send a message via Skype™ to Shinikenshi
Default A Civil Discussion on the Alleged Elitism On This Board

Quote:
Originally Posted by GipFace View Post
If that's what you think, so be it. I met several people at the con who were disgusted at all the elitism.
I hate to say it, but I do notice a sense of that. Being one who has...VERY LITTLE care for VNs as a whole, I suppose I notice this more clearly.

But enough of that digression...what I'd like to say in this matter is that both sides of this mud-slinging fest probably is at fault. I am not going to go over specifics because frankly, I don't care. All of you are acting immature to some degree or another and all of this really ought to stop. I'll hope that one of the mods here will see things my way and just close this thread to keep things from further degenerating.

I am not going to take sides on this matter. I have friendly relations with people on both sides of the aisle and know very little of the previous antagonisms that are probably making this situation...which by all means should have been some silly, funny haha bit and stayed that way into something totally blown out of proportion.

Let's collectively stop the bickering and move onto other things.
__________________
Your friendly neighborhood eroge seller.
Hendane!.com ...omfg the site is up again!
You WA Shock!

Last edited by zalas; 2008-05-31 at 19:34. Reason: branched off from http://forums.novelnews.net/showthread.php?t=35378
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 2008-05-29, 01:08
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In this post I'd like to seriously ask a question that's bothering me for a while. It has the possibility to come off inflammatory, but that's not my intention, so please pre-emptively still your ire ;)

In several threads I've seen this 'elitism' point raised. It does mostly centre around Gip, but he's not the *only* person saying this.
The thing is, there's rarely any kind of rational explanation because usually it crops up in the middle of flamefests.

So, 'elitism' (or at least the way it's used on the internet) being a situation where one group thinks or appears to think they are superior to another depending on certain criteria, it'd be nice to find out what these criteria are, and how this thinking exhibits itself in practice.
A lot of us obviously don't see it, so to get some clarity on this would be beneficial.

One thing based on my experience reading *chans and such is that there are a lot of people who think people in forums like this are elitist for their (admittantly over the top at times) anti-piracy stance. But to be honest I have little empathy there, and I doubt this is the point Gip & co have issues with considering Gip's piracy stance in events past...

I seem to remember a mention of a percieved rift between those who know Japanese and those who do not, but I've yet to see it in practice. We all seem to happily co-exist talking about these games whether translated or not.

So, what is it?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 2008-05-29, 02:43
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

As I see it, there are several possible interpretations, two of which you've already outlined.

1. Moral elitism
The 'piracy is unacceptable' stance of certain communities is looked at (perhaps not unjustifiably) as both naive, impractical and hypocritical by other communities like 4chan and hongfire. gip aside, this definitely seems to be a point of contention for the aforementioned communities and many other ordinary joes who've gotten used to 'free stuff' in related communities like anime and manga.

An interesting variant of this that I've seen is a form of economic elitism that gets trotted out whenever someone brings up the old 'I'm too poor to afford these games' argument.

2. Intellectual elitism
Apart from the aforementioned 'Japanese/non-Japanese reader/speaker' thing, there's also the 'I know X series/studio/artist/writer better, and I'll beat you over the head with it because I can' thing. Being fans, I suppose this is inevitable to an extent. We love to tell people about the things we enjoy (and enjoy them we must, if we are so intimately familiar with them), even if it bores them to tears and leaves them thinking 'this guy's just showing off'.

As a Japanese speaker who's passionate about many IPs, I've been guilty of this on many, many occasions, but I can vouch for the fact that it's still painful when I hear (or read) someone do the same.

3. Social elitism
This is the perceived impression that some groups give of 'Our group is so 1337, we're not going to tell you about our working progress, and you'd better shatter your CDs and lick our boots if you want our releases. Otherwise, we'll throw a tantrum and cancel our project'. Events like Wind-gate, the TH2 cancellation and various other lesser dramas have probably unjustly exaggerated this image, but the fact is that many groups are private in what they do, and that localisation staff do sometimes snap when asked ostensibly sensible questions, if only because they've already been asked them many, many times before.

Those obviously aren't the only reasons, but for what it's worth, they're the ones I see as being behind the bulk of the criticisms localisers and their associates receive.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 2008-05-29, 03:53
kouryuu
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ok, I think I'm gonna say a few things here:

1) The elitism issue--
I don't think anyone on this forum is an elitist, or if they come off acting as one, I don't think anyone takes them seriously to begin with. If you want to argue the "No piracy" Issue, I don't think its so much that this forum is against piracy as much as it is following a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy, in order to cover our own asses. No one has made the argument that what we do is legal, but to avoid lawsuits we like to 'encourage' people to buy the actual product. Whether they do or not, we will ultimately never know about it as long as they don't tell us. I think that's a satisfactory line, most everyone in the community has come to agree upon. The only time drama arises is when you have people deviating from this, but we won't mention those incidents since they're all too well known.

2) The VN community--
I joined this community back when Haleth and all the other NNL and Insani people were still around 4 years ago, and I find it just as helpful and friendly as it was back then. Just about everyone is welcomed here unless they come bringing a fight with them on purpose. I will admit, it has become a bit watered down, but thats more a sign of the community's expansion, and thus well being, than it is rotting or falling apart. Forum posts, discussions, and information are flowing through this forum far more freely and far more frequently than it was 4 years ago. If you call this a bad development, then I suppose you never really desired a visual novel community to exist in the first place. Fair enough, many of the older members such as myself have become less frequent posters to the forum, but most of that is because those early users have been drawn in by the genre, studied the language, and are occupied with projects. When I first joined the community, the only projects people had to watch were Haleth's work on Kanon and the various demos and short games produced by insani.

3) To Gipface--
No offense, but from what I've seen of your posts on the gemot, you come here purely to troll, flame, or complain which makes me question what reason you have for trying to irritate and upheave this community? If you have an issue with a particular person, couldn't you resolve that through personal discussion with said person, be it through PM, IRC, one of many other forms of communication, or if you want to complain to no one in particular, I believe you do have your own site for that, or there's always livejournal. I don't know why you've come to hate this community the way you do, but a quick review of your posts reveals it happened around the time of the Wind Drama. You're always free to leave, and to be honest, as much as we may not like it, we wouldn't be able to stop you from taking others with you if you really wanted to. But I think everyone is sick and tired of your trolling in this forum. Maybe if you actually contributed on occasion, or worked to fix what you think is wrong with the forum, instead of just complaining and flaming, people might take you seriously and not flame back.

Finally, as a fellow otaku, I can understand you wanting the dress. However, try and remember... you wanted to pay $700 for a Used Dress. With the intent to cross dress in it. I'm surprised Haruko wasn't completely freaked out by your claims. Maybe she actually was. Also, anyone who's ever been in an auction, seen one, or even played one in a game, knows you should never call it "your final bid" unless you're intentionally trying to get outbid by the other person bidding. Lastly, an auction for an idol/voice actress's personal article of clothing has little to do with this community to begin with.

So in conclusion, the only one I can see being elitist here is you, your highness. However, maybe if you took time to step off your self-made throne of importance, you might realize that this is a Republic without a king, nor an aristocracy.

If you think I'm wrong, prove it through your actions, not through flames.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 2008-05-29, 04:21
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> the 'I know X series/studio/artist/writer better, and I'll beat you over the head with it

I don't really know what 'beat over the head' means in this context. To talk about it a lot? Isn't that just the mark of a fan? (as you yourself stated)

> leaves them thinking 'this guy's just showing off'.

I don't ever remember seeing something like that. You say you've read it and cringed - perhaps some example posts?

If we're talking about knowing all the intimate details of creators and studios and stuff, perhaps I haven't noticed since I usually skip over posts like that (I read stories and don't care much for who made them).
I still don't see how it's elitist though. No more so than the military wota rambling on about WW2 era tanks when you're trying to play an RTS - just sad, not elitist ;P

> 'Our group is so 1337, we're not going to tell you about our working progress'

I don't know how relevant the translation group scene is to the community of this forum. I mean, I know a lot of the same faces are here, but all discussion here tends to be geared towards consuming of the medium, not the translation. Translation group members are not stars here.

Does Insani come off as elitist do you think? I always got the impression they simply kept silent because they'd rather not raise expectations before a release (and have to deal with all the attention that results).

As far as the general drama of the translation scene... well, it's not something I think anyone is fond of, but it's also not really relevant to this forum. We're more spectators of that than anything?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 2008-05-29, 04:34
Asceai's Avatar
Asceai Asceai is offline
Posts way too much
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,413
Default

I'll make my comment nice and brief.

gipface, you posted here trying to pick a fight. You admitted as much yourself earlier. Your responses to everyone in this thread calling you out on this behaviour was either an explanation that didn't even border on satisfactory, or a response that amounted to 'fuck you'.

And we're the community full of elitist trolls?!

You've been carrying this better-than-thou chip on your shoulder like a badge of honour for as long as I can remember in this community (which isn't very long since I only joined in May 2007). You make all these vague complaints about the Gemot that don't even stand up to a cursory examination (anonymous posters posting in Japanese to show off? uh, where?) and feel some kind of sick 'pride' in showing this HashiriyaR32 fellow 'what the community has turned into'. (gee, a community that complains when you troll it, who would have thought).

To be honest, I can see why the ZZTers still don't like you.
__________________
www.erogenews.com

Last edited by Asceai; 2008-05-29 at 04:42.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 2008-05-29, 05:12
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
> the 'I know X series/studio/artist/writer better, and I'll beat you over the head with it

I don't really know what 'beat over the head' means in this context. To talk about it a lot? Isn't that just the mark of a fan? (as you yourself stated)
Specifically, to ramble on about pet topics regardless of relevance to the point at hand or consideration for how interested anyone else might be. Some people (myself included) find this irritating, but I can well imagine that others won't - much like how not everyone on 4ch hates this forum (or at least, not specifically for this reason). I'm just raising it here as what I think might be one of several reasons someone might dislike this community, which has many passionate and knowledgeable members.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
> > leaves them thinking 'this guy's just showing off'.

I don't ever remember seeing something like that. You say you've read it and cringed - perhaps some example posts?
I'm afraid I'll have to decline. I'm not interested in either indicting or defending anyone on this point, and the last thing I want to do is stir up more drama. I just want to throw out the idea that speaking purely subjectively, there are people who'd perceive this to be 'showing off' and hold it against the speaker as 'elitism'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
> 'Our group is so 1337, we're not going to tell you about our working progress'

I don't know how relevant the translation group scene is to the community of this forum. I mean, I know a lot of the same faces are here, but all discussion here tends to be geared towards consuming of the medium, not the translation. Translation group members are not stars here.
I certainly take your point that gemot isn't all about localisation, but due to its history and the fact that almost every localiser is a member here, gemot is seen as representative of the visual novel localisation community at large. When a scandal hits, you can bet the trolls will pay a visit.

In the context of 'elitism', I'm not aware of any hate specifically being directed against the so-called 'ordinary' users on this forum. Everything I've seen has always been directed in some way towards the localisers and their groups, or their supporters (specifically in that capacity). I suppose that rather than saying that gemot itself is seen as elitist by some, it might be more accurate to say that it's the kind of person who is (accurately or inaccurately) widely thought to frequent gemot that is considered elitist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Does Insani come off as elitist do you think? I always got the impression they simply kept silent because they'd rather not raise expectations before a release (and have to deal with all the attention that results).
My (and your) personal views aside, I can understand why some people might consider insani and other private groups as 'elitist', simply because they think a refusal to engage with the public implies a disdain for the public. Perhaps they might think the group considers them unworthy to be informed of a project's progress, or that the group doesn't value their comments or input - and in fact, doesn't care to associate with them at all! Popular statements from localisers in the vein of 'I'm only doing this for myself, not for everyone else on the internet' have probably added to this in the past.

I'm certainly not saying I agree with this view, but I can easily imagine it to be one held by others.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 2008-05-29, 05:17
kouryuu
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asceai View Post
You've been carrying this better-than-thou chip on your shoulder like a badge of honour for as long as I can remember in this community (which isn't very long since I only joined in May 2007)
Again, follows my earlier statement: Wind drama started up in June 2006 (As the post dates will show you), so it would make sense you didn't see Gip from long ago--when people like Haleth and gp32 were still active and he mainly stayed quiet or at least respected the forum because of their presence as the founders of the community to begin with.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 2008-05-29, 10:39
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
I joined this community back when Haleth and all the other NNL and Insani people were still around 4 years ago, and I find it just as helpful and friendly as it was back then. Just about everyone is welcomed here unless they come bringing a fight with them on purpose. I will admit, it has become a bit watered down, but thats more a sign of the community's expansion, and thus well being, than it is rotting or falling apart. Forum posts, discussions, and information are flowing through this forum far more freely and far more frequently than it was 4 years ago.
By my observation, the forum has thinned out in terms of the number of Japanese-illiterate (or near-illiterate) users ever since it became VisualNews Gemot. This is still a comfortable place for those who play or translate Japanese-language games, but there's indeed an air of elitism that probably puts off others.

As for "watering down", I don't know if expansion is the root cause. Haeleth was good at motivating people to hone their translation skills or to just pick up small bits of the language. He was equally good at keeping Japanese-illiterate users engaged in meaningful discussion, so without that focussed leadership (which is honestly quite rare), the forum culture has changed.

Quote:
Does Insani come off as elitist do you think? I always got the impression they simply kept silent because they'd rather not raise expectations before a release (and have to deal with all the attention that results).
No, it's clear that Insani became quiet because of their disgust for the community at large. The group's official stance is that they translate for the benefit of themselves and other translators. Whether the public reads and enjoys a work is merely a side-effect (hence the lack of communication with the community, who don't matter much with regard to their endeavours. It's others in the scene that they want to speak to and possibly mentor).

Is that elitist? Perhaps. Insani has raised specific reasons (Planetarian piracy, hassling over upcoming releases, user ignorance, etc.) to hate the public, so their stance isn't surprising. Just don't expect users to feel welcome by those words.

Quote:
Apart from the aforementioned 'Japanese/non-Japanese reader/speaker' thing, there's also the 'I know X series/studio/artist/writer better, and I'll beat you over the head with it because I can' thing. Being fans, I suppose this is inevitable to an extent. We love to tell people about the things we enjoy (and enjoy them we must, if we are so intimately familiar with them), even if it bores them to tears and leaves them thinking 'this guy's just showing off'.
Yes, while that kind of discussion doesn't bother me, some might perceive it to be elitist (those unfamiliar with the topics are totally left out, even though that "elitism" is probably unintentional 90% of the time). A solution might be to introduce a sub-forum to discuss works that aren't in active translation.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 2008-05-30, 00:24
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> it's clear that Insani became quiet because of their disgust for the community at large.
> The group's official stance is that they translate for the benefit of themselves and other translators

Many people translate only for themselves (infact IMO that's probably the only way you can not go insane doing it), but this does not mean they have disdain for their consumers or the community surrounding. It just means that they derrive enjoyment from the challenge itself. If the result of overcoming that challenge is that many non-Japanese speakers can now enjoy the work, then it's a side effect (but a good one! :)
To think that this attitude reflects on *any* feelings towards the consumer is looking at it backwards.

If you have other reason to believe they are 'disgusted' then that's fine (could well be true, I've never spoken to any of the team myself), but you cannot conclude that from their motivation in translation.

I can certainly see how this can be perceived as elitist though, which helps. I think it's a case of managing how you word things so as not to give off that air (if you even care about this kind of stuff).

> the forum has thinned out in terms of the number of Japanese-illiterate (or near-illiterate)
> users ever since it became VisualNews Gemot.

Hmm, I don't think so. The activity peaks and falls when English releases come out. Since One there hasn't really been anything of note.
You can't expect these people to be interested in people discussing a game they cannot play themselves, but they're here lurking and post whenever something relevant comes up. This just isn't a very active forum.

That said, the move to VNN did seem to change the atmosphere of this place considerably. If anything it became less intimidating and 'elitist', I'd say, judging by the increase of posters who sounded younger by their writing (and often had fanboy Japanese sprinkled throughout...)

Of course threads full of people discussing Japanese games in these lulls might scare away people, so perhaps a separation of the forums is a good idea.
(I think the Otakuism forum has this kind of setup, but I've never posted there since it requires registration)
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 2008-05-30, 01:39
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
> it's clear that Insani became quiet because of their disgust for the community at large.
> The group's official stance is that they translate for the benefit of themselves and other translators

Many people translate only for themselves (infact IMO that's probably the only way
If you have other reason to believe they are 'disgusted' then that's fine (could well be true, I've never spoken to any of the team myself), but you cannot conclude that from their motivation in translation.
Just you know, gp32 has made it clear in multiple places. This includes both his story about Planetarian engine build numbers (quoted in a post on Hongfire during Wind-gate, don't have a link), and more directly through his comments on encubed's True Remembrance article.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 2008-05-30, 06:10
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> and more directly through his comments on encubed's True Remembrance article.

Not seen that comment before - it's hilarious. It frustrates me how people make themselves care so much about pointless things, especially those who have proven themselves to be otherwise rational and intelligent beings.

If you're truely translating for yourself, why be bothered to correct public perception of your circle, especially over something so small?

I speculate that people like this would be much happier just doing everything anonymously and letting go of the social ties - i.e. having any kind of name or personality attached.
I know I certainly enjoy posting translated things on a random *chan and then forgetting all about it.

Anyway, I'm not sure that comment proves the original point about Insani, though now I can definitely see where the opinion has come from.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 2008-05-30, 06:35
Asceai's Avatar
Asceai Asceai is offline
Posts way too much
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,413
Default

gp32 is correct. It's not a 'fan translation', as a 'fan translation' is generally accepted to be an unauthorised translation. True Remembrance was authorised.

The rest of gp32's post was utterly unnecessary, redundant and pretty mean-spirited.

Of course, the other interpretation is that 'fan translation' is simply the term used to refer to translations not performed by a commercial licensee. Under this intepretation, unless insani was granted full license to redistribute, commercially or otherwise, the translated works, the translaiton would still count as a 'fan translation'. This is, however, a far less common interpretation - in fact, I think I'm the only one that uses it. I use it because, to me, it provides less ambiguity, especially for works where one may have been (as part of a larger group, or unintentionally) granted authorisation to translate a work, even if authorisation was not specifically sought, whether the original creator of the work knows that their work is being translated or not.
__________________
www.erogenews.com

Last edited by Asceai; 2008-05-30 at 06:43.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 2008-05-30, 08:04
mikey mikey is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 16
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asceai View Post
Of course, the other interpretation is that 'fan translation' is simply the term used to refer to translations not performed by a commercial licensee. Under this intepretation, unless insani was granted full license to redistribute, commercially or otherwise, the translated works, the translaiton would still count as a 'fan translation'. This is, however, a far less common interpretation - in fact, I think I'm the only one that uses it. I use it because, to me, it provides less ambiguity, especially for works where one may have been (as part of a larger group, or unintentionally) granted authorisation to translate a work, even if authorisation was not specifically sought, whether the original creator of the work knows that their work is being translated or not.
Hmmm, I'm all for only really distinguishing between authorized and unauthorized translations (instead of saying "fan translation") , because it's relatively clear to see and categorize that way and indeed much less ambiguous. And to keep it simple I'd just interpret "authorized" as that the people translating it had the permission from whoever holds the respective right (the developer, publisher, others, or the game was free for anyone to translate to begin with)

Of course, if needed, you can then apply a commercial / freeware subdivision and have:

authorized - freeware (typically: short doujin games)
authorized - commercial (typically: PeaPri, G-Coll, Hirameki variety)
unauthorized - freeware
unauthorized - commercial (Wind, Planetarian etc,... most controversy lies here)

And I'd say 95% of the time the term "fan translations" (if we take Shii's list as an example) will refer to either authorized freeware or unauthorized commercial translations. Also, I imagine it will be more difficult to find it derogatory or flame-inspiring if the work is filed under "authorized translations". Although logically such a sterile termilology lacks the enthusiasm that's often the motivating and also community-building factor, so I imagine the word "fan translation" will stick around :)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 2008-05-30, 09:18
Anya Anya is offline
Visitor
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
I speculate that people like this would be much happier just doing everything anonymously and letting go of the social ties - i.e. having any kind of name or personality attached.
When Planetarian's patch was completed, gp32 released a guide on how to buy the 1100-yen product. The whole point of that course of action, as I see it, was him being enthusiastic about the product; he tried to convey his positivity to other users so they would decide to buy it. The point a lot of folks are missing is that these guys genuinely love the products they work on, and the consequential translated product. You can't display that enthusiasm by staying in the shadows. After all the hard work they invest in these ventures, I don't exactly imagine them not saying anything. Translating an obscure manga chapter, while no less noble if you like, isn't exactly the same as translating a full-length visual novel. <_<
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(P)ONScripter GrayScale mode discussion dsp2003 Technical Issues 3 2009-06-19 11:06
Anti-spam discussion Varion General Discussion 14 2008-04-18 14:28
Dungeons and Dragons at Haeleth-Sama's board New General Discussion 3 2005-08-15 03:33
AIR TV discussion (spoilers) zalas General Discussion 102 2005-01-31 11:27
Is this board broken? Haeleth Technical Issues 5 2004-07-19 05:03


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.