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General Discussion Theres a Clannad of AIR-headed Kanon fodder being shot by the Little Busters After Tomoyo on a Planet-arian.

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  #16  
Old 2008-06-03, 22:59
stranger_offline
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Question the title really goes here

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Originally Posted by GreatSaintLouis View Post
You weren't _forced_ to do a goddamn thing. Nobody, insani or anybody else, came to your house and held a gun to your head and told you to get the game off of Megaupload. In fact, while insani's guide is slightly outdated, other members have still been able to download the game from the changed website--a quick search of the forum reveals members were still able to purchase and download the game as recently as January of this year. All you had to do is ask for assistance in navigating the new download site, but instead you make the preemptive and asinine assumption that there's some sort of inherant elitist malice behind insani's choosing not to update their guide, and then have the audacity to claim you were 'forced' into downloading a copy of a version you had no right to.
I have to agree with GSL, nobody forced you to do anything, you are the only one who wanted to read the visual novel. You were never forced by anyone to read it, and it was your own choice how you obtained it. insani owed you nothing, and they had and still have a good reason to be upset by the fact that their work (which they hoped to help the sale of the VN) was re-distributed along with a pirated copy of the VN.

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Originally Posted by GreatSaintLouis View Post
Take some responsibility for your actions. It was your choice entirely and nobody elses. Don't act like you were left out in the cold after buying the CD version, because insani stated at its release they would not update the patch for it. It wasn't like you didn't know.
right on the spot, insani said that they will not remake their patch for the CD version, so where did you get the impression that they owed you one from?

I think there is a miss understanding here, saying that you will not make any future patches is a normal thing. There are a number of fan subbing groups that came and left the anime scene over the years. Making their stand clear regarding anime piracy is also fine (it is still a free world the last time I checked), as long as they don't start accusing everyone of piracy.

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Originally Posted by GreatSaintLouis View Post
Again, you--and not a single one of us here, for that matter--are not entitled to a single one of these retail products or the English translations in any way. Stop acting like you are, and stop petulantly accusing people of 'elitism' because they don't hand you these things in a silver platter.
did someone actually believe that they were entitled to a patch? no really?, I've been away from the form for along time so I don't know if someone did this.

It should be clear to people that if they want to have a future product (VN/Game/anime) based/similar to the current product, then the current product must sale well and make profit. It doesn't matter how much you praise the product online, or how much you like it. What does matter is that product did sale or not, after all the actual sales and money generated is what puts food on the table, not the praise that the company/product receive online.

So basically, you didn't get the download edition of the title but instead got the pirated copy, I for one don't bloody care. Keep that info to yourself, and please don't expect insani to feel sorry for you. Later you decided to get the CD version, good work man, you helped keep the lights ON for a bit longer in the Key office and have let them know that someone does like their VN. As for the patch.... you do realise that the fan translators didn't owe you the first patch let alone owe the 2nd?

I'll repeat what pbsaffran said/wrote but in my own words. When buying a product, you are not supporting the fan translators, your are supporting the company that made the product that the fan translators patch applied to.

As for the fan translators, if your patch helped the sale of the product, then it is well and good, if not, then don't blame the fan users. You will never be able to find out the actual figure of how much the patch helped in the sale. JASTusa claim that the sale of their VNs/games to be in the 1000s (not official numbers, and I still blame this on the lack of advertisements) and not in the 10,000s. So what makes you believe that your patch will bush the sales of Japanese VN/game through the roof?
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  #17  
Old 2008-06-03, 23:06
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Smile can't think of a titiel

by the way Enerccio, don't take the comments on your post personal, none of us ever meet you in real life and might never do. So keep the discussion going in a good spirit.

well, I am off for now.
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  #18  
Old 2008-06-04, 09:36
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Since I'm new here, and to the overall VN community, I'll just make some general statements about the elitism and piracy topics and refrain from any ill informed finger pointing.

First of all, "elitism" is too often used to attack someone you disagree with on the internet in general. I think it's time for everyone (generalization of the internet) to grow up and stop complaining because someone doesn't see an issue the same way as you. You don't like someone's stance on a topic? Ignore them, don't attack them.

As for pirating. My personal opinion is that it is important to support the creators of whatever it is you're interested in, be it Anime, Manga, games, music, etc. Believe me when I say I know what it's like to not have the money to afford everything you want. In that situation it's probably best to just forget about it until you have the cash to buy what you want, even though that can be quite a feat.

Of course, not everyone is in the same situation when they pirate copyrighted material. As a linux user and a gamer, I have a difficult time when deciding which games to spend my money on. Much research goes into figuring out which applications will run properly, and even then the only real way to know is to run the program. And so I have pirated games to test their usability on my system, to know if I should buy them. Does that reason justify piracy? No, but it's certainly better than spending $90.00 on something that doesn't even work. I know the "test before you buy" excuse has been used for years to advocate piracy, but in a situation like this I'm left 2 choices: 1) test it and decide if it runs well enough to buy. 2)Not buy or play anything.
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  #19  
Old 2008-06-04, 10:02
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Default Piracy flaming goes here

Oh ye mods of thread-moving powers~~

The elitism thread has spun into a totally separate thing about piracy. I personally hate the whole debate with a passion, both sides just shout and make inflammatory remarks and never convince the other side (though they might convince bystanders, but that's besides the point).

I motion that it moved into its own little cesspool, where the rest of us who already have our own opinions either way are spared the sight of the usual array of arguments and anecdotes trotted out back and forth.

Call it thread 'intarw3b d0ramaz elitism' if you want~ <3
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  #20  
Old 2008-06-04, 10:15
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LOL. Should we ready the fire hydrants to spray down the mob on each side? ;)

Or toss in rare items into the mobs and see if they will destroy themselves fighting over them!! XD (Me and a friend actually wanted to do that if a humongous mob would've appeared outside Suncoast the day of Advent Children's release!)

Okay, enough of my innane humor XD *shuffles off into his room and sits reading his 2 new Kanon doujin he picked up at AZ*

-Rai
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  #21  
Old 2008-06-04, 10:21
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Quote:
insani owed you nothing, and they had and still have a good reason to be upset by the fact that their work (which they hoped to help the sale of the VN) was re-distributed along with a pirated copy of the VN.
+1 They have all reasons to be upset, that is correct. But, i don't think that the main reason of their translation was an "recommendation for others to buy this little masterpiece of VN". :) IMHO, they did the work for their own enjoyment in the first place.

As an translator, i understand the situation very well. Just imagine: you're wasting lots of your free time, you know that nobody will pay for the work, your life suddenly changes (birth of baby, new work, traffic accident, your lovely hamster dies...) and you're still working on your translation "hobby" (but, it gives you nothing but the pain. Your own mind persuades you: "You're a human, aren't you?! Finish it, and your mission will be accomplished! Keep it up, just a little bit more!"). Finally, you've released it. You've showed it to the public. And it costs nothing for them.......

At one "beautiful" day you've found that your work is being pirated along with the VN itself. The worst thing is that the pirates will derive a profits from the results of your work, by showing several ADS to people who will download it, by selling the warez CDVD copies... Will you wish to "support" those bastards anymore? I guess not.

I hope you've got my point. The real reason in all of this is not the piracy itself - the real reason is money. Not in the meaning that the translator is "not getting his cut from the pirate", but in the meaning that the "pirate steals and sells work of the translator".

Sincerely yours, WinKi-tyan.

Last edited by dsp2003; 2008-06-04 at 10:25. Reason: Grammar fixup
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  #22  
Old 2008-06-04, 11:27
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if your hobby only gives you pain isnt it time to look for something else to do?
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  #23  
Old 2008-06-04, 19:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
if your hobby only gives you pain isnt it time to look for something else to do?
Oh gosh! If you tell translators that we'll never see another release...
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  #24  
Old 2008-06-04, 23:34
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Doesn't matter either way.

Kicking up a fuss when you realize that people will be people doesn't help your cause, and no matter how you explain it, the only thing people will think is that you are a hypocrite and cannot be trusted or respected.

Also, don't give Gip wank material.
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  #25  
Old 2008-06-05, 00:49
GreatSaintLouis GreatSaintLouis is offline
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Do these threads really need to keep being spun off into minor sub-threads? I thought the discussion about supposed elitism was born out of the phrase being used to describe people of the staunch anti-piracy mindset; thus wouldn't the two be related?

Also, Agilis, if you're so over the piracy argument, why bother posting in the thread to have mods trim it down into ever more obnoxiously specific topics in the first place? Fine, you're not one to argue the point (and I'm not saying the issue doesn't become tired or that progress is ever made), but why does that turn the discussion into a cesspool? I would have thought that you also, as a translator, if not willing to join the ridiculous fray would at least be understanding of the passion one can feel about the art. Yeah, I'll agree the argument is often cyclical and a waste of typing, but if you're already fixed in your opinion why bother patronize the rest of us who happen to be a bit more (regrettably) vocal on the point?
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  #26  
Old 2008-06-05, 00:54
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GSL, whatever Agilis' motivations may or may not have been, I think splitting off the thread was a decent idea. Sorry for derailing it, guys =P
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Last edited by Asceai; 2008-06-05 at 03:25.
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  #27  
Old 2008-06-05, 01:28
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Get a full time job. Then you should have some spare money if you are eating instant noodles everyday like me. And that should be enough to buy you some eroge for christmas.
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  #28  
Old 2008-06-05, 02:37
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Yeah. And he could also use any torrent search engine for about 5 seconds and get a download link.

As long as you can find a seeder for just about everything, the point is moot.
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  #29  
Old 2008-06-05, 02:38
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Smile imagine that a title was typed here

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatSaintLouis View Post
Do these threads really need to keep being spun off into minor sub-threads? I thought the discussion about supposed elitism was born out of the phrase being used to describe people of the staunch anti-piracy mindset; thus wouldn't the two be related?
nah man, I think you got it wrong... or maybe I did (most likely I did since I don't know where the original discussion came from).

Standing by what you think/believe is right is not elitist in any way. The problem comes when a fan translator get tired from translating and start calling everyone pirates. And this usually where "we/us vs you/they" begin.

I do understand that translating is not a fun process (in fact I can think of it as a punishment, how many times did the Clannad translator team go through the same script already?). The team should expect some well earned gratitude once they released the patch, and they should expect the ones who have waited for it to be honest enough to actually buy/import the title. There is nothing wrong with this.

The problem is when their work does get pirated (and I'll be surprised if they didn't see this coming), they start taking it out on everyone, and they don't even do it on the forum of the people who are re-distributing the patch.... but they do it here!*. Getting tiered and deciding not to do another massive/time consuming project again is fine. But do step down gracefully as when you entered the first time, there is no need to say "you people are a punch of pirates, are unworthy of my time and I will not do another translation because of you people!" You'll be surprised to know that some people did in fact buy the title because of this translators work, reading those type of statements from the translators is quite painful. (and for all its worth, in Tanzania, buying those titles is cheaper then downloading them, 1gb of bandwidth cost about US$ 50. Although this will be my last time going through Akibado, it toke 2 months and 3 weeks for them to send Clannad!)

P.S. since I don't even bother to login I might seem like an outsider trying to put his nose where it shouldn't be. So I hope that nobody gets upset/angry with my posts and continue a spirited discussion. Cheers

*This remind me of my high school electronic teacher, he decided to give the class an extra lesson before the exam, less then half the class came to the lesson (me being one) and he started to shout at "us" for not taking his good gesture and he told us to leave the class! He was upset at the ones who didn't come, yet delivered his anger at the ones that did come! What gives?
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  #30  
Old 2008-06-05, 02:44
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Originally Posted by Agilis View Post
... both sides just shout and make inflammatory remarks and never convince the other side (though they might convince bystanders, but that's besides the point).
Umm...actually that would be the entire point of a debate in the first place. Those arguing a particular side of the debate are supposed to be fervently supportive of their side, and no good debater ever enters a debate attempt to sway "the other side". They've already decided. The goal is to sway the undecided. So while you call that meaningless, that's actually the entire meaning behind it.

As for my personal stance, I'm in the middle:

Do I download anime? Yes I do. I also either delete it or buy the DVDs after I finish watching it. I even subtitle anime, though In my instance the anime I work for is always something that was aired prior to 1990, never licensed, and thus is not only hard to find Japanese RAW sources for, but highly unlikely to ever see the light of day if we didn't.

Do I download console games? No. I can easily go to a store, test play them, see if they work, view demos, read reviews as well as firmly established brand quality to help aid my decision on what to buy.

Do I download PC games? No. Same reason as console games--also I don't play them much to begin with since I don't have high-speed when home from college.

Do I download Eroge/VN? Depends. Licensed games such as Hirameki, I've bought. I probably own all of the games Hirameki released, even if I haven't played them all. Planetarian? Admittedly, the way I first found the game was as the pirated version, however, that led me to buy the CD version, which now collects dust on a shelf somewhere. As for not-yet translated games, again its a mix. Those I haven't been able to ample research with, I'll download, and if I like it, I buy it. If its something I know is going to be good, I buy it. (For example, owning 11eyes, Fate, Seinaruka, Little Busters EX and Higurashi Kizuna (DS ver.) on pre-order, etc.) However, my games played and games owned do not match, as I've encountered plenty of pretty bad eroge--most of which I quit halfway through.

So my idea on the whole argument is that people will download and people won't. If my translation helps someone new enjoy the game that's great. If even half of the people who enjoy it decide to buy the game, I feel even better. However in the end, I'd like to cover my own ass as much as possible. so "please pay for the game if at all possible."
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