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General Discussion Theres a Clannad of AIR-headed Kanon fodder being shot by the Little Busters After Tomoyo on a Planet-arian.

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  #241  
Old 2006-06-27, 10:04
Benoit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omgwtflolz
The only thing worse than a flaming idiot is a self-righteous one.

Disgusting.
Thank you for confirming how delusioned people are. ^_^
Just an insult, nothing to back it up.
  #242  
Old 2006-06-27, 14:14
cbfsgf
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It's interesting to see the different opinions being expressed here. I gave up participating in these kinds of debates years ago. People tend to stick to their opinions regardless.

Anyway....

I still have Wind on order along with Shuffle!. Maybe a little silly, but I like to think this will all work itself out once the heat dies down. I have quite a few bishoujo games, I buy the once I am interested in after playing a trial or sometimes word of mouth. Shame that most of them never get translated, as it takes me a very long time to read it. It's just a shame that once again irresponsible people (I would like to say the few, but appears to be the majority this time) have ruined it for everyone.

As far as verification of ownership goes, I am happy to do pretty much anything. I was thinking though perhaps a photograph of the owners holding the box in a certain way would work? Maybe something like "While sitting down hold the Wind box upside down in one hand and one of this week's newspapers in the other" . For this sort of thing I don't think seeing the persons face is neccessary, so even people a little worried about doing that could still be verified.

Hoping that this all works out in the end.
  #243  
Old 2006-06-27, 17:40
SRMoogle SRMoogle is offline
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Benoit(Guest), please don't mix my quotes in with others' without labeling them...anyway:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit
Quote:
What exactly is the point of not pirating a game you would like to play if you could not possibly hope to acquire it legally? Is this somehow morally/ethically 'better' than pirating media you would otherwise never experience?
Yes, it is morally/ethically better. With the digital age, people talk themselves into believing that they're not doing anything wrong with pirating, because nothing disappears from the shelves of a store. But it's all the same thing: you are STEALING a game. No amount of excuses or fallacies will change that. The game is sitting on your computer without monetary compensation. You just saved the company some packaging money, which doesn't compare to the cost of creating the digital content on the CD.
That is simply a rather cynical way of perceiving it; if the person would absolutely not have purchased the product, the company has not actually lost anything at all if that person downloads it. Assuming it stops with this person, this has done nothing more or less than allow one person to experience something they wouldn't have otherwise.

Assuming they continue to share it, it's incredibly hard to speculate on what good or bad this does, particularly because they're likely just increasing the already-present download speeds of others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit
Quote:
All this will do is limit the publicity received by the creators and the media itself
It's barely any publicity at all considering that only 1% turns around to buy the game.
Publicity, not sales. Companies like minori and KEY would not be nearly as well-known in other countries if piracy weren't so rampant, regardless of what other effects it may actually have.

(Besides which, pirating one thing does not mean you pirate everything. Piracy has been said to actually increase the sales of various kinds of media.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit
Quote:
deprive one more person of something they would likely have enjoyed
So what? It's a luxury, they don't need to experience it.
By the same logic, minori doesn't need me to buy one copy of their game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit
Quote:
I suppose I understand that, but I just get bothered when people demand that others conform to such rigid views of morality.
People have never liked to be honest and conforming to the rules. That doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do.
That doesn't mean it is the right thing to do, either. =P All this last part is just rhetoric, and I'm short on time, so I won't go into this...

And the rest of the post was someone else being quoted, so I'll avoid it as well. *done*
  #244  
Old 2006-06-28, 08:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRMoogle
That is simply a rather cynical way of perceiving it; if the person would absolutely not have purchased the product, the company has not actually lost anything at all if that person downloads it. Assuming it stops with this person, this has done nothing more or less than allow one person to experience something they wouldn't have otherwise.
You're acting as if everyone has a right to play the game.
  #245  
Old 2006-06-28, 09:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You're acting as if everyone has a right to play the game.
Not really. He's just saying that it's not like the company is losing any money when someone who has no intention of buying the game downloads it.
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  #246  
Old 2006-06-28, 09:59
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That is a bold statement then........
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I see.....
  #247  
Old 2006-06-28, 10:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRMoogle
Benoit(Guest), please don't mix my quotes in with others' without labeling them
Your request has been granted. ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRMoogle
That is simply a rather cynical way of perceiving it; if the person would absolutely not have purchased the product, the company has not actually lost anything at all if that person downloads it.
Popular excuse. The fact that it is sitting on his computer at all means that (s)he is interested in it. Which means (s)he should(and maybe would) have bought it. It doesn't negate the fact that it was stolen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRMoogle
Publicity, not sales.
The two are tightly related. Publicity ultimately aims to achieve sales. If the sales are low, the publicity was close to worthless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRMoogle
Besides which, pirating one thing does not mean you pirate everything. Piracy has been said to actually increase the sales of various kinds of media.
I'm specifically talking about bishoujo games here. The other products (like movies and music) are easily bought because they're readily available in stores, at regular prices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRMoogle
By the same logic, minori doesn't need me to buy one copy of their game.
You're twisting things around. The fact that playing a game is a luxury, and not needed for survival, has nothing to do with how well the game needs to sell for the company. I wonder where you got that idea from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRMoogle
That doesn't mean it is the right thing to do, either. =P
Robin Hood complex?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxic
Not really. He's just saying that it's not like the company is losing any money when someone who has no intention of buying the game downloads it.
I explained above why this is just an excuse. When something is stolen, a sale is lost.
Or are you going to tell me that thieves stealing things from a store is justified because they would have never bought it? Of course not.
  #248  
Old 2006-06-28, 11:28
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Haeleth Haeleth is offline
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Clearly somebody who downloads something instead of paying for it attributes some value to the thing they download. Why would you download something you don't want? Leaving aside people with compulsive disorders, it seems that most piracy can be divided into two categories:

1. People who would be willing to purchase something, but are not able to find a seller;
2. People who would be willing to purchase something, but not at the asking price.

Category 1 covers things like abandonware and fansubs - products which are not on sale either because they're out of print, or because officially they don't exist yet. It also covers people in countries that it's hard to get products shipped to, of which there are many, though it's rare for there to be absolutely no way to import a product if you want it badly enough. However, it's category 2 that's of interest here: people who have no difficulty in finding a product, but would rather pirate it than buy it because they don't have the money, or don't think it's worth the price.

Consider a game priced at $100. A lot of people think $100 is too much to pay for a game. Some of those people would, however, have been willing to buy the game if it had been $25. There are three points of view on what happens when such a person pirates the game:

1. the maker loses nothing (SRMoogle's line);
2. the maker loses $100 (Benoit's line);
3. the maker loses $25.

I'm inclined to think option 3 is the most realistic. But that leaves us in an interesting situation: the maker loses a potential profit whether the person pirates the game or goes without.

In this hypothetical situation, I wonder, would the most advantageous outcome be for four such people to club together and buy one copy of the game between them? Is it more ethical to abide strictly by the seller's terms of business, or to take the grey action which maximises the seller's revenue?
  #249  
Old 2006-06-28, 12:47
Billhead Billhead is offline
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There are still two other types of pirates.

There are those that couldn't care less what the price or availability is, they are going to pirate it.

Then there are the more rare ones, like myself.
I pirated Kanon, then I ended up buying it because I liked it.
I pirated Shuffle!, and within the next few days I am going to be placing my order because I like what I have seen so far(and pray that Navel doesn't shut down Heklin's translation project).
  #250  
Old 2006-06-28, 13:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billhead
There are those that couldn't care less what the price or availability is, they are going to pirate it.
From a purely logical, non-biased standpoint, your "third" category is included in Haeleth's second category.

2. People who would be willing to purchase something, but not at the asking price.

Considering : "for all X belonging to <human race> so that X is not willing to acquire a particular piece of software at ANY NON-ZERO (or non-trivial) price" is included in "for all X belonging to <human race> so that X is not willing to acquire a particular piece of software FUNCTION of a NON-ZERO price"

HAIL THE POPPERIAN EMPIRE!

(Yes, I realise Popper has nothing to do with this at all, spare me, I'm studying too much)
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  #251  
Old 2006-06-28, 14:06
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Haeleth Haeleth is offline
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And people who buy a game after initially pirating it can also be squeezed into category 2: the monetary value they assign a game they have not played is low, but it rises for a game they like, and they buy a copy if it reaches the asking price.

Anyway, it's not meant to be more than a very rough model -- it's just a way of approaching the question of how much financial loss piracy represents.

I really ought to study a little economics some day... I think I just realised why it's interesting. :)
  #252  
Old 2006-06-28, 14:18
SRMoogle SRMoogle is offline
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Nn...I think my speechifying skills need a lot of work. I'll avoid saying much else on this subject until something happens or I learn to phrase things properly.

All I really feel up to commenting on today is this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit
Or are you going to tell me that thieves stealing things from a store is justified because they would have never bought it? Of course not.
Actually, since it's more like the thieves are making copies of the things and they "never would have bought it", I think that's relatively justified. I just wish people would try to buy the things and/or support the creators more often; some thieves are worse than others...

...Oh, and yes, my views on all thievery are largely based on Robin Hood. =)

(Off-Topic P.S. - Would anyone happen to know how long it usually takes Peach Princess to ship games to the U.S.? I decided to take the HF folks' advice and try Ever17...)
  #253  
Old 2006-06-28, 14:29
Carl Carl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haeleth
Clearly somebody who downloads something instead of paying for it attributes some value to the thing they download. Why would you download something you don't want? Leaving aside people with compulsive disorders, it seems that most piracy can be divided into two categories:

1. People who would be willing to purchase something, but are not able to find a seller;
2. People who would be willing to purchase something, but not at the asking price.

Category 1 covers things like abandonware and fansubs - products which are not on sale either because they're out of print, or because officially they don't exist yet. It also covers people in countries that it's hard to get products shipped to, of which there are many, though it's rare for there to be absolutely no way to import a product if you want it badly enough. However, it's category 2 that's of interest here: people who have no difficulty in finding a product, but would rather pirate it than buy it because they don't have the money, or don't think it's worth the price.

Consider a game priced at $100. A lot of people think $100 is too much to pay for a game. Some of those people would, however, have been willing to buy the game if it had been $25. There are three points of view on what happens when such a person pirates the game:

1. the maker loses nothing (SRMoogle's line);
2. the maker loses $100 (Benoit's line);
3. the maker loses $25.

I'm inclined to think option 3 is the most realistic. But that leaves us in an interesting situation: the maker loses a potential profit whether the person pirates the game or goes without.

In this hypothetical situation, I wonder, would the most advantageous outcome be for four such people to club together and buy one copy of the game between them? Is it more ethical to abide strictly by the seller's terms of business, or to take the grey action which maximises the seller's revenue?
I've never seen the principle of opportunity cost applied so well to piracy before. Well done, Haeleth.
  #254  
Old 2006-06-28, 14:39
Kefit Kefit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haeleth
I really ought to study a little economics some day... I think I just realised why it's interesting. :)
I'm actually an economics major, and I just want to touch on something you mentioned earlier.

You suggest that someone who is willing to pay $25 for a game with an asking price of $100 could be seen as a $25 loss to the company. Strictly economically speaking, I would say that that is unlikely - in all of the models I have worked with, consumers that are not willing to pay the asking price of a product are simply not considered to be in the market for that product - they produce no surplus for themselves (the amount more than the asking price that they would be willing to pay) or for the producers (profit). There are models with graduated price levels, but the bishoujo game market is likely far too small and homogeneous for those to really be applicable.

Of course, nearly free copying and limited distribution (not in number, but in method - not everyone is capable of downloading gigabyte upon gigabyte) of a product by a third party makes for a rather complicated extension to any given model. Nothing I have worked with so far has dealt with this, but given the constant uproar about piracy from big software developers, I am sure that there is lots of research going into it. However, I imagine that anything more than a cursory evaluation of this sort of thing would be PhD level stuff.

Another thing worth considering in this specific situation (a bishoujo game gets translated by fans) is how willingness to pay gets determined. It makes sense for someone who knows Japanese to be willing to pay more for one of these games - by supporting the company, they increase the liklihood that the company will produce more games which the consumer will be able to enjoy in the future. However, this aspect of cost cannot be applied to a consumer who would need the translation, since he will most likely not be able to enjoy any future games released by the company, regardless of if they close down tomorrow or remain in business for many years to come. This is why I have few qualms about downloading any game that is fan translated, yet will pay for every Hirameki release that I play.

Of course, it would be ideal for the game producer to be able to reach and earn a maximal profit off of each of the different groups of people with different willingnesses to pay for their product, but the reality faced by pretty much all firms (regardless of product being produced) is that such a thing simply isn't feasible.
  #255  
Old 2006-06-28, 15:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefit
However, I imagine that anything more than a cursory evaluation of this sort of thing would be PhD level stuff.
I was afraid of that. Interesting questions tend to be. :/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefit
It makes sense for someone who knows Japanese to be willing to pay more for one of these games - by supporting the company, they increase the liklihood that the company will produce more games which the consumer will be able to enjoy in the future. However, this aspect of cost cannot be applied to a consumer who would need the translation, since he will most likely not be able to enjoy any future games released by the company, regardless of if they close down tomorrow or remain in business for many years to come.
That's an interesting argument; I can't think of any purely pragmatic counter-arguments, though the appeal to law remains. There is, I suppose, the fact that some fan translators are discouraged by piracy, which means that the proportion of players who are perceived as owning legitimate copies will probably have a measurable effect on future fan-translation output; I can see how that's going to be a significantly weaker motivation for most consumers, though, particularly those who are considering piracy as a way round the buy/do-without dilemma.

One question is how much this pragmatic aspect of value would support the use of verification processes. It would seem likely that some people will be more willing to pay for a game if doing so will mean they gain access to a translation sooner, or even at all. But there's also ample evidence in the preceding thread that verification adds sufficient additional effort (and possibly cost) to the equation that many people will care less about the translation overall. Clearly if it puts off more many people than it spurs on, verification could actually be counter-productive (even if we assign a non-zero cost to piracy). I suppose there's probably far too little hard data to be able to say whereabouts the balance lies, though.
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