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  #31  
Old 2005-11-08, 08:31
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PyTom PyTom is offline
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Heck, sometimes Ren'Py help will even come to you...


Although one of the projects I've been working on in a low-priority manner is improved tools for editing Ren'Py, I think a completely WYSIWYG tool would probably hurt more then help, in the long run. It would force people to make look and feel decisions (like the size of text-boxes) at the start of game development, rather than towards the end as is more appropriate.

How do the Japanese-made engines support concepts like word-wraping and proportional fonts that are in English but aren't really used in Japanese? IIRC, some of the translators had to use heroic measures to get these working.

(Also, why I'm here, could someone point me to the right place to ask questions about io_ChristmasEve?)
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  #32  
Old 2005-11-08, 11:06
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Haeleth Haeleth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PyTom
How do the Japanese-made engines support concepts like word-wraping and proportional fonts that are in English but aren't really used in Japanese? IIRC, some of the translators had to use heroic measures to get these working.
To put it simply, they don't. Translations of NScripter games typically use versions of the open source clone ONScripter that have been patched to implement word wrapping; translations of AVG32 games use precalculated line breaks; translations of RealLive games will probably use the word wrapping engine I've implemented in RealLive itself. I'm not sure off-hand what's been done with KAG3/KiriKiri games.

<strike>I don't know of any translations of ren'ai games that have actually implemented proportionally-spaced text at all; generally Japanese-designed engines don't even take the possibility into account.</strike>
Edit: See ChocoEd's post below for how they handled proportional spacing in Fate/stay night.
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  #33  
Old 2005-11-08, 13:12
GreatSaintLouis GreatSaintLouis is offline
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Hey, maybe we're the ones who have it all screwy - the ancient Romans didn't much care about word-wrapping, either.

Then again, they were busy most of the time conquering the majority of the known world, so it was probably something like a deca-tertiary concern for them in those days...
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  #34  
Old 2005-11-08, 22:42
ChocoEd ChocoEd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haeleth
I'm not sure off-hand what's been done with KAG3/KiriKiri games.
So far it's been done (for insani projects at least) with some script preprocessing and some patches to the interpreted code that ships with the games. It's a bit of a hack, but it works decently, doesn't have to mess with the executable itself, and can adapt to the character spacing of different user-chosen fonts at runtime.

One thing I didn't appreciate until looking through the existing KiriKiri code is that they did have some word-wrapping for Japanese already, to avoid leaving orphan punctuation marks or splitting up a multi-character syllabic unit like "sha". Using the hooks for those routines to do English word-wrapping instead was very handy.
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  #35  
Old 2005-11-09, 03:34
zalas zalas is offline
 
 
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If you want a simple visual novel engine, then try out Yuuki Novel (sorry, Japanese only). It's designed for the beginner in mind (in terms of programming) and has a very easy to use GUI.

And if you have questions about io[XE] you can ask them on this forum (just probably not in this thread ^_^;)
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  #36  
Old 2005-11-25, 01:19
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In regards to game engins, does anyone know how the rUGP system by age works?? I'm still trudging along in my attempt at translating Kiminozo, but I'm pretty much at a wall until I figure out how to make a patch.
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  #37  
Old 2005-11-25, 05:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace_Starleaf
In regards to game engins, does anyone know how the rUGP system by age works?? I'm still trudging along in my attempt at translating Kiminozo, but I'm pretty much at a wall until I figure out how to make a patch.
Not knowing a thing about game engines, or programming whatsoever i'm not sure if this will help, but a link for you to check out:

http://www.geocities.com/kolya_kgne/RIODecode/

And a quote from: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=15792 (currently latest post).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DingoEnderZOE2
Bumping this:

Currently theres someone on the net who has the game hack,script in hand and everything is ready to go. But the problem is.....he needs some translators to help get the show on the road. But at the same time he's worried that because time has passed, noone would be interested anymore. He worries that the demand for games like Shuffle would be stronger. I understand how he feels perfectly. So guys, are you still interested in a translated patch of Kimi ga Nozomu Eien the game, and do you know of any groups who would be interested in being a translator for the game?
I'll post linking him to here as well. Just incase it is useful.
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  #38  
Old 2005-11-26, 09:14
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Thanks Eden, i'll look into it. I've decided almost a year ago to try and translate this game and now it looks like I finally can. Still going to be a while doing it as my Japanese is just barely good enough to pass the JLPT level 4. ^_^
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  #39  
Old 2005-12-02, 05:13
Nowyc Nowyc is offline
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Yo... Before asking this question, I tried searching the 'Net for an answer, but couldn't find one.

What's the difference between the several visual novel engines? What makes one more 'powerful' than the other? Why would companies choose one free engne over the other if they perform the same purpose in the end?

Some of my guesses include: graphics format support; sound format support; easy of use, laguage-wise; and I suppose any word processing capabilites it might have.
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  #40  
Old 2005-12-02, 06:15
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Haeleth Haeleth is offline
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Your guesses will be pretty close, though some (like graphic format support) are less important because graphics can easily be converted.

Some other factors:
  • Existing investment - if their coders know an engine, they'll be tempted to stick with it regardless of new alternatives.
  • License issues - for example, KiriKiri is more flexible than NScripter, but NScripter is free for any use while KiriKiri is, I believe, GPL'd with an option to buy a commercial license if you don't want to be bound by those terms.
  • Contract issues - the publisher may require the use of a certain engine (this is apparently the case with VisualArt's, at least).
  • Visibility - I doubt anyone in Japan has even considered Ren'Py, not because it's not as good as the Japanese engines but simply because they've never heard of it.
And, of course, most companies don't tend to use free engines at all, but rather to develop their own in-house engine that does exactly what they need...
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  #41  
Old 2005-12-02, 18:33
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PyTom PyTom is offline
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I just crunched some numbers, and it winds up that the number of downloads of Ren'Py from Japan is well behind the number from Saudi Arabia. So yes, I think it is fair to say that Ren'Py is virtually unknown in Japan.

I would suggest that there are a couple of other issues that might come up when picking an engine.
  • Support, in general - It's probably best to choose an engine with an active community behind it, so that one can ask questions and get support. It's probably also best to pick something that's under reasonably active development, to ensure you won't get stuck with a game that can't run anywhere.
  • Language support - Some engines seem to only support certain character sets. If I read the code correctly, xsystem35 only supports non-ascii shift-JIS characters. (Although it may support double-width characters.) Having unicode support is nice if one wants to support multiple languages. And it's also good to have line-breaking rules for a language, so that you don't have to break the lines manually.

I suspect network effects have a lot to do with peoples choice of engine in practice.
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  #42  
Old 2005-12-02, 20:34
Nowyc Nowyc is offline
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Ah, I see. Haeleth and PyTom, thanks for the answers!

Haeleth, you said that most companies will create their own engine instead tousing an already existing one, right? Do they often license out their own engine to other companies to use? Do they release it to the public, allowing anyone to use RealLive?
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  #43  
Old 2005-12-03, 04:36
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Haeleth Haeleth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PyTom
Language support - Some engines seem to only support certain character sets. If I read the code correctly, xsystem35 only supports non-ascii shift-JIS characters. (Although it may support double-width characters.) Having unicode support is nice if one wants to support multiple languages. And it's also good to have line-breaking rules for a language, so that you don't have to break the lines manually.
And this is, as you're doubtless aware, exactly where Ren'Py shines for non-Japanese creators. The Shift_JIS-only issue isn't limited to xsystem35, it's common to practically all Japanese-created engines; similarly, Japanese engines usually only handle the minimalistic line-breaking required for Japanese, which is basically restricted to making sure you don't end up with orphaned punctuation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowyc
Do they often license out their own engine to other companies to use?
Sometimes. This is what VisualArt's seems to do - I haven't been able to work out exactly how their corporate structure works, but it appears to comprise a parent company that publishes games and develops a game engine, which is then licensed out to individual brands, like Key and 13cm, as part of their publishing contracts.

I haven't heard of anyone like Leaf licensing out their engines, though.

Quote:
Do they release it to the public, allowing anyone to use RealLive?
Nope, proprietary engines tend to stay proprietary. Fans have cloned quite a few of them, and there are a few fan-made development kits (plug) that you could use to write games for them, but in all the cases I've seen, the only contact the public officially gets with the engine is by buying a game and using the runtime to play it.
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