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  #16  
Old 2007-11-18, 05:44
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So basically GipFace is saying he'd rather see the main site die than see a donation button appears so Misu can actually afford to pay for the hosting. Is my guess good?
  #17  
Old 2007-11-18, 06:20
GipFace GipFace is offline
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So basically GipFace is saying he'd rather see the main site die
The main site would not die. At the very worst, the downloads section gets removed. And if Misu can't pay for that, then tough. That's life. Torrent all the files or something. You don't see the other VN site making excuses about bandwidth.
  #18  
Old 2007-11-18, 06:56
KaioShin KaioShin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GipFace View Post
You don't see the other VN site making excuses about bandwidth.
Do you mean http://www.visual-novels.net/ ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutio
If there will be no way to keep the server the site will go down, point.
It's not that I don't want to keep it up but I just can't afford it.
http://www.visual-novels.net/forum/s...=3624#post3624

*cough*
  #19  
Old 2007-11-18, 07:31
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I wrote myself a bit wrong there, basically it was because of AQS which you can read here:
Quote:
EDIT: Our manga DDL host, visual-novels.net, would like to remind all of you that DDL hosting isn't free. So, if you have any money to spare, your donations would be humbly appreciated.
Anyways, there's no point in that thread anymore *deleted*
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Last edited by mutio; 2007-11-18 at 07:35.
  #20  
Old 2007-11-18, 08:21
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Is it just me or has Gip really become the grumpy old man of the english based visual novel sites. We wouldn't hear from him at all anymore if it wasn't for the things he is insulted by or pissed about.... and that seems to be just about everything.
  #21  
Old 2007-11-18, 09:43
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Is it just me or has Gip really become the grumpy old man of the english based visual novel sites. We wouldn't hear from him at all anymore if it wasn't for the things he is insulted by or pissed about.... and that seems to be just about everything.
There's some truth to this IMO. I especially remember the To Heart 2 translation thing when it started. I just thought it would be an excellent opportunity for NNL not to comment on it and leave the arguing to others, but there was a "statement" again and you just knew that there's still a lot of venom and things bubbling inside. You can feel it through the sarcasm of the posts and the private blog the link of which has been brought up prominently to the main NNL page after Reikoku's statement pushed the first link down. They are still attached to the fandom and even though officially "retired", I imagine it's hard to get a distance. But with time when the next drama comes and a few after that, one day they will just stop caring I imagine.

I do share the general view about donations and the responsibility of the site owner (as well as the visitors not needing to be burdened by personal perils) and I can also understand if they decide to ask to pull down NNL patches. On the other hand, if I was Visualnews I would see no reason to oblige in this case just because of a donation button (see you in court), but then I'd probably pull them just so I wouldn't have to be tangled up in another blog war.
  #22  
Old 2007-11-18, 09:45
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In short, donating is all about good intentions, but can be easily twisted into corruption.
Don't get me wrong, but GipFace is goddamn right! :( Everything have the limits. It's all the rhetorical questions, though.

And there's one simple (and complex at the same time) decision - if someone can't pay for the hosting - pay yourself and become the owner (or you'll rather see the dead site instead? If that's just happened with main server, what's about this one? Will it whistand or die like the rest? Think fast, dudes. I'm posting here because i do really care).
  #23  
Old 2007-11-18, 12:14
Blue Lemma Blue Lemma is offline
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Wow, I never knew a little question about donating would spark such a controversy! I'm kind of shocked. Why is there so much anti-donation sentiment?

Running a website isn't free. It takes time and money. I think it's fair to assume the person(s) running the site are willfully giving their time up and expect no compensation for that (in non-commercial sites). But what's wrong with them getting a little help in recovering the costs? I run a website where I give away games I've made, and it costs $100+ / year to keep it up. While I haven't given any links for donations, how could anyone say it would be wrong if I did? The visitors are getting free content! If I received the kind of caustic/critical remarks I saw some people giving here, I would be incredibly upset. They smack of entitlement and freeloading. No one has said "donate or the site's goin' down, buster" or anything of the sort. It's a simple small voluntary donation to help out the webmaster who foots the bill.

I understand the point that this site has amateur works of other people on it. So it's okay to distribute if you'll pay $xx for bandwidth, but not if you pay $(xx - some donation)? I'm not seeing how that works. Sure, there's a chance the webmaster can pocket the money, but there are two good arguments against worrying about it:

1) People usually don't donate, so it's not as if he'd be rolling in cash. Take SDL, for example, which is a widely-known free library for programming games. It's been used by professional game-makers, it's so popular. And in 6 years? Only about $3000 dollars in donations, and that includes larger donations from open-source funds! I could give other examples of good websites that accept donations but hardly get any, but I'll cut it short.

2) There should be trust. If you're downloading stuff from here, how do you know for sure there isn't some back-door trojan being installed on your system when you run it? You probably don't, but you trust that the person distributing won't do that. So why is it so hard to trust that donated money will be used for operating costs?

I agree with Mutio. If someone wants to donate, that's between that person and the recipient. If prior agreements aren't being violated (like "you can host this if you don't accept donations") then why should anyone else care?

>_<
  #24  
Old 2007-11-18, 12:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Lemma View Post
I run a website where I give away games I've made, and it costs $100+ / year to keep it up. While I haven't given any links for donations, how could anyone say it would be wrong if I did?
Well, you are providing actual (artistic) creations, while we are providing an aggregation service. Personally I think you deserve donations more than we do, haha. It would be really amusing if we kept the donation thing, but made it so that you have to get to the "donation ending" in an online AVG. That would be hilarious.
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  #25  
Old 2007-11-18, 12:29
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Well said and with that I think we should end this discussion about donations.
Just let me clearly state one damn thing since this really pisses me of:
I and Misu are free to do with our sites what WE want. So it's our business when we put up donation buttons. Nobody is forced to donate.

I'm back to my law stuff, this is getting just to ridiculous. Even German public law is better to read than some of the posts here lol..
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  #26  
Old 2007-11-18, 14:04
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Wow..., I come back to look at this thread and see it wrapped up in so much controversie =o.

Well, to fill ya in, the bill is paid and its just dreamhost taking care of its things in its slow matter.

Since a lot of it seemed like speculation of "what Misu does or thinks", I guess I'll quickly go over my views on a couple things.

Donations can be used for the wrong things
Wow, if anyone disagreed with that, they would be some of the most naive fools out there.

If Misu makes a donation button I want my stuff off + theres already been a donation button on the site since a long time ago
The person who said that is correct, there has been a donation button on a subpage of the site somewhere (I'm not even sure anymore ><) for quite a while. The way I see it is that, if someone likes what where doing and feels like they wish to contribute to help out what the site is doing, then I say go for it. My money that I've used to pay for the hosting of this site for two years didn't come free and the hosting for it in the future most likely wont come free either and I much appreciate if someone wants to help out with those costs. Saying that though, I hate websites that say "If you don't donate, where going to have to shut down!". This is where Gip is completely right. As someone starting up a site, you have the full responsibility to maintain it. If you can't afford to do so, either transfer the owernship to someone who can (maybe one of those donaters who your trying to get money from) or maybe consider closing your doors down. In my case, I never asked for anyone to give me money, I merely had stated I ran into some financial hardships and wasn't able to pay the bill till my paycheck came in, which has resulted in about a week of downtime. So, I really hope that stance is fine with you Gip, but if not, PM me and we can work something out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsp2003 View Post
If that's just happened with main server, what's about this one? Will it whistand or die like the rest? Think fast, dudes. I'm posting here because i do really care).
Ironically, thats slightly incorrect. The main server is this one and the secondary is Dreamhost. I've been in a state of transition things to this server since it was recently reached the point where it could run things besides just this forum, but as things would have it, billing time ran about before I was terrible far into that transition. So you wont have to worry about the forums for a long time to come, but hopefully Dreamhost will get around quickly to reactivating the account so I can continue with the transition over.


I guess what it really boils down to is that Gip states that a site that has "grown off the popularity or work of others" should not be entitled to reap in the profits from others work. It is essentially the concept of the spam blog harvester. Takes others work and compiles it on a shitty site with lots of ads in hopes to scrap money without having to have done anything. While I completey agree with that statement, I don't think VN does that.

As someone who loves technology and gadgets, I like visiting the two popular blogs Engadget and Gizmodo. Both Engadget and Gizmodo rely greatly on news information passed to them from other sites. The typically write up a small summary of it and inject a bit of themselves into their posts, and leave links back to the appropriate source of information. It becomes an excellent resource for me so I don't have to maintain reading all those places it checks and I enjoy the commentary and writing style both sites use. Does that make me feel that they are any less valuable or more valuable then the people who originally created the content? At least for me..., not really. There just another component along the way that helps me enjoy, learn, and know what I want to know.

In regards to JRaiKetchum, who flew out from across the country to attend the meetup, I personally don't see what the issue is? If there is an event in some foreign place that I want to attend, is there really a crime for me to decide to take a vacation, buy a ticket to that place, do some tourism and attend that event? If I wanted to go to Comiket, is it a crime for me to spend say $1200 on a plane ticket to go to Japan, do some tourism, attend an event and call it good? Or maybe I should put it in some similar terms. If I had a friend who I hadn't seen in a long time having a party and he happened to live far away, is it a crime for me to say "Hey, I havent seen you in a long time, is it cool for me to come visit for a bit and attend your party?". Say he lives in Phoenix, AZ and I kinda wanted to check the place out, is it a crime that he's given me an incentive finally now to take a vacation, go out there, do some tourism, and then attend his party? I hope to god not, else I would be quite the criminal =o. To me, it's just like any other tourism trip that someone makes that happens to involve attend something, whether it be a convention, small meetup, or a party. Sure, you go out to attend something, but you enjoy your trip and your tourism like any other vacation.
And for the record, yes, JRaiKetchu did come before the meeting and did quite a bit of sightseeing in Seattle before he attended the meet up and he had a blast at the meetup afterwards too.
Anyways..., I guess I'm trying to figure out whats the big problem in that..., but again, if you want to solve that for me, you can PM me.

Finally, it's kinda ironic that this whole thing was brought up in the first place. The way I see it, Gip's argument is about the donation of money and/or the reminder of the ability to donate money because people don't need to have that forced down their throat and if they really wanted to donate, they would take their own initive to do so. Yet his post is in response to Blue_lemma's post in where he was doing exactly that. He wanted to take iniative to donate, but had no capabilities to do so (lacking a donations button that linked into some engine that allowed donations), so he asked if it was feasible. I'm pretty sure he knew that the site was not in any danger of going down as I specifically stated that the bill was going to be paid on Friday (which it was on Saturday becuase I could not make it to the bank on Friday), but decided he wanted to help offset the costs. Becuase of that, I really don't see the problem with having a donations button somewhere on the site, given that people who want to take initative and donate have the capabilities to do so.

Saying that though, I will NEVER threaten this site of shutting down becuase of lack of donations, or threaten anything as a result of no or small donations. I will also try my utmost hardest never to have to ask for donations either. If it ever gets to the point that this site is dependant on the goodwill of others to maintain, I WILL actively seek someone else who can better financially support and guide VisualNews to take over and continue the site.

And with that, I agree with Mutio, it seems to me that this topic is closed.
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