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Haeleth
2005-05-25, 06:09
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm proud to present, for the very first time in RealLive - non-ugly text.

http://haeleth.net/temp/vwf.jpg

You will observe no mirrors and no hidden wires. The RealLive executable has not been modified in any way. Photoshop has not been used.

Why, then, you ask, will this not be used in Kanon? Because it would be hideously complicated to transform the proof-of-concept into production code. It'd be getting to the point where I was basically writing my own game engine inside RealLive, which would just be silly.

It's still nice to know it's possible, though.

AstCd2
2005-05-25, 07:12
パチパチパチ

So, what implications does this have (if any) for

- the patch in general?
- the compatibility adjustments for SE?
- future projects using the RealLive engine?

emperor
2005-05-25, 07:47
As far as I was able to judge from the post it has no effect whatsoever since it's too much work to do this for a huge amount of text.

Haeleth
2005-05-25, 08:07
So, what implications does this have (if any) for
- the patch in general?
None, really. :p

emperor is correct; implementing this in a game would be too much work for me to bother. (Although the main difficulty is more to do with making sure it looks reasonable with any font the player chooses than the quantity of text.)

- the compatibility adjustments for SE?
I now finally know how to duplicate every AVG32 effect in RealLive, so I won't have to take any features out in SE.
The RealLive text-repositioning features used to get the proportional font effect will be used in Kanon for things like accents and underlines, which are implemented differently in the old version.

- future projects using the RealLive engine?
Again, nothing very significant. I doubt anyone's going to want to pay what it would cost to develop this into a general proportional-text routine...

I just thought it was time I posted something vaguely on-topic, and the functions this uses happen to be the ones I'm implementing at the moment. ;)

curlyconnor
2005-05-25, 16:44
So am I correct that this isn't really a step forward in getting a SE-compatible patch out?

GreatSaintLouis
2005-05-25, 19:32
If I'm understanding you correctly, is this more of a single hacked scene than any sort of dynamic ability to display text on-the-fly?

I was poking around through your RealLive dev tools (trying in vain to figure out how the heck to go about dumping my Kanon SE's SEEN.TXT) and upon reading your documentation for the tools, it sounds like RealLive is a right bastard to attempt to get running the way you want. Now that I understand it a bit better, the efforts put forth by yourself and Jagarl to create an emulator (as it were) of the engine plus tools to work with game data is absolutely amazing, nevermind the fact that you've both got something semi-usable out of it thus far. Not that my approval means anything, I'm sure, but I'm duly impressed.
I almost get the impression that RealLive was not created by any earthly compiler, but is the product of some unholy union between forgotten extraterrestrial technology and the finest of Louisiana voodoo.

Either way, good luck, and hopefully this bodes well for the SE end of things.

gp32
2005-05-25, 21:25
I almost get the impression that RealLive was not created by any earthly compiler, but is the product of some unholy union between forgotten extraterrestrial technology and the finest of Louisiana voodoo.
Oh, in other words, it's Akiko's jam, then ...

New the Newbie...
2005-05-25, 23:57
How would one go about translating Kanoso? Just curious.

Haeleth
2005-05-26, 01:19
So am I correct that this isn't really a step forward in getting a SE-compatible patch out?
Well... you could look at it that way. I prefer to think of it as an interesting byproduct of the process. Like I said, the newly-discovered features used in that screenshot will be used in Kanon - just not to do that. :)

If I'm understanding you correctly, is this more of a single hacked scene than any sort of dynamic ability to display text on-the-fly?
In this case, yes. Each character width lovingly adjusted by hand.

I was poking around through your RealLive dev tools (trying in vain to figure out how the heck to go about dumping my Kanon SE's SEEN.TXT)
<tt>set RLDEV=</tt>(wherever you installed it)
<tt>kprl -d seen.txt</tt>

the efforts put forth by yourself and Jagarl to create an emulator
Well... the efforts put forth by Jagarl, anyway. All I've really done is write a few patches, and I haven't even got round to sending him those yet... ^^;

How would one go about translating Kanoso? Just curious.
Find tool capable of extracting Scripter3 scripts, translate text, look in vain for tool capable of rebuilding Scripter3 scripts, convert to NScripter instead. I think it's being done, though I don't know if the doer wishes to be identified at this stage. ;)

Oh, in other words, it's Akiko's jam, then ...
Closer than you might think. Very similar, in fact, in that half the ingredients are complete guesses. There's still all sorts of things like "tone curves" and "bust shots" that I can't even guess the nature of. And they keep adding new features - anyone care to hazard a guess what the "call flags (L flags)" introduced in the latest version might be? -_-;;;

Probably New
2005-05-26, 02:05
Thanks, dood.


If I'm understanding you correctly, is this more of a single hacked scene than any sort of dynamic ability to display text on-the-fly?
In this case, yes. Each character width lovingly adjusted by hand.



I wouldn't use the word "Lovingly" in that case...

Haeleth
2005-06-04, 04:52
Here, on the other hand, is some stuff that is going into Kanon. This is from my first build of Kanon Standard Edition with (a little) English text included.

This should look quite familiar:

http://haeleth.net/temp/s_yuuichi.png

But the text is now always formatted correctly, whatever the player chooses for the hero's name:

http://haeleth.net/temp/s_silly.png

However, I don't think I'll be releasing anything quite yet...

http://haeleth.net/temp/s_whoops.png
<blockquote></blockquote>

GreatSaintLouis
2005-06-04, 10:09
パチパチパチ

It's awesome that you got it working, but too bad about the memory error - then again, with that enlightening code snippet you showed us in your other thread, it doesn't surprise me. The day draws near when my Kanon will be just as English capable as... well, whoever has the CD version!

So from what you can see before the crashes, is your method of text display holding up pretty well throughout the game, or is it not letting you get very far before the errors show up?

Haeleth
2005-06-04, 11:00
Oh, I've fixed the bug already. My compiler was emitting malformed code in certain cases, and their interpreter was failing to handle it gracefully.

Apart from that, it really does seem to be working properly, and nobody's more surprised about that than myself. Even the speed's acceptable... on my system, at least. I'll probably be releasing a test program in the next few days, to make sure that it runs acceptably on even older machines.

kouryuu
2005-06-04, 12:46
Dare I ask or speak it?

Does this mean us English-bound souls will finally have a second game we can play completely through?

Haeleth
2005-06-04, 13:17
Again, not yet. This work is orthogonal to the main translation effort - it brings the translation from the old CD version to the new DVD version of the game, but it doesn't further the progress on the old CD version at all.

The editing process for the English script, which is the "main show", is still ongoing, naturally. But it's harder to show progress there.

GreatSaintLouis
2005-06-04, 18:37
So now the grateful owners of the DVD can join the CD owners in eagerly awaiting the final translation, instead of worrying if our version will ever be doable. ^_^

Shish
2005-06-05, 07:12
I take a month off, and something happens :O


Well... the efforts put forth by Jagarl, anyway. All I've really done is write a few patches, and I haven't even got round to sending him those yet... ^^;

Speaking of which, could you? After a month of neglect (exams, still ongoing) our codebases are splitting up, which makes patch generation / application hard, even for my tiny superficial tweakings~

Haeleth
2005-06-06, 03:45
Speaking of which, could you? After a month of neglect (exams, still ongoing) our codebases are splitting up, which makes patch generation / application hard.
I've been waiting for a new version, so I can give him patches I'm reasonably certain will apply cleanly against whatever sources he's using. Now that 0.6 is finally here, trust me, I'm working on it... ^^;

I see he's using yours already:
Shish さんによるパッチ適用、起動用オプションをいくつか追加(Looks like your screenshot patch has made it in, too.)

Haeleth
2005-06-09, 17:03
Okay, so it took me a week to get things into a fit state to be seen... but it's done, and my patches should be making it into the next version.

Next up - figuring out how to fix the object system to support the offscreen layer, so Kanon's title screen will work.
Looks at object code and calculates how much needs to be implemented.
...on second thoughts, maybe it would be simpler to rewrite Kanon's title screen not to need such complicated features... ;_;

Haeleth
2005-06-23, 15:22
What I've been working on today: implementing textual notes in Kanon Standard Edition.

RealLive's sprites and multiple compositing modes make the 'information' icon that indicates the existence of a textual note considerably prettier and less obtrusive. The best change is something you can't see in a screenshot: there's a noticable flicker when the icon appears and disappears in AVG32, which is completely absent in RealLive.

http://haeleth.net/temp/i_avg32.png http://haeleth.net/temp/i_rl.png

RealLive supports multiple text output windows, while AVG32 only supports one; this means I can put notes in a separate space, and keep the text I'm commenting on visible:

http://haeleth.net/temp/nt_avg32.png http://haeleth.net/temp/nt_rl.png

As a slight aside, the kanji in the example above are too small to see, but there's a real improvement here as well. In order to make sure the few kanji I want to keep in the game work properly even on copies of Windows that have never heard of Japanese, I've implemented them as bitmapped characters. RealLive's rendering of those is rather nicer than AVG32's:

http://haeleth.net/temp/smkk_avg32.png http://haeleth.net/temp/smkk_rl.png

The conclusion is as usual: RealLive is an absolute pig to work with (getting the second text window to appear at the right size and position required fiddling with dozens of settings in the game's INI file, every single one using a different coordinate system), but if you make the effort, the results can be worth it.

GreatSaintLouis
2005-06-23, 18:28
Awesome work! With all these little niceties you're throwing into the SE, I'm glad I purchased that version. ^_^

Although it is a bit torturous seeing all these nifty enhancements and not being able to play the translation for an indefinate amount of time, but that just makes the waiting and the final product that much better! Keep up the good work!

K
2005-06-23, 19:20
I see a lot of Standard Edition work going on, and (not to be pushy, but) I'm just wondering... how's the progress on the original version going?

Haeleth
2005-06-24, 01:26
Oh, it's moving forward, of course. It's just that most of the interesting stuff (as opposed to "edited another hundred lines of text") is happening in SE right now.

Well... that's a white lie; the editing process is quite interesting, too. The number of mistakes I made in some of the earlier parts of the translation is terrifying. Trivial stuff, too, like translating 「わたし、料理は得意だよ。 誰かと一緒にしたら嫌だよ」 as "Cookery is my strong point. I don't like doing it with anyone," when the second sentence blatantly means "Unlike someone I won't mention" (i.e. Yuuichi of the deadly yakisoba). Let's just say that the next version will be, ahem, considerably more accurate. But the English text is shared between the two versions, so that's still SE-related. Kind of.

For owners of the original, however, here's some visible AVG32-exclusive progress that I don't think I've shown you yet - the new ED credits sequence (the original just has a plain black-and-white text scroll). This is arguably the most complicated code in the game, having three animated areas with asynchronous transitions. Needless to say, the choice of CGs on the left depends not only on which ending you got but also on which events you saw in the process, the subtitles are optional and available in a choice of languages and fonts, and the names in the credits are displayed according to the user's preference of western or Japanese name order. ;)

http://haeleth.net/temp/avg32_ed.jpg

Nanatuha
2005-06-24, 05:28
I didn't know how unreadable Tasogarekubitsuriotoko in English is. ;p