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2005-04-30, 13:28
I have a question about Kanon (the adult versions specifically, but really just the game in general)? Is it lolicon? I mean, I know the characters are supposed to be in late high-school. But they look so young! I also know that the storyline is top-notch. But still, would Kanon be considered lolicon? And if not, why not?

Tagan
2005-04-30, 13:34
Uhm, as far as I know, Lolicon is not an english word. But I think I get the jist of the message despite not knowing what 'lolicon' means.
Can't really answer you though, I don't know the characters exact ages, although I think that indeed most of them are below the age of 18.
(Checks a few online dictionaries real fast)....nope. Lolicon does not come up...so either it's not a word, or you're using a Japanese word I don't know. So I don't really know what you mean by your message except what I can figure out from the context of it.

2005-04-30, 13:39
Maybe this will help:

From Wikipedia:

Lolicon
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Lolicon, or Rorikon (ロリコン) is the Japanese gairaigo term for Lolita complex (derived from the novel Lolita), the sexual attraction to fictional and real underage girls, or ephebophilia.

Lolicon usually involves female characters between the ages of 8 and 13. Lolicon manga are legal in Japan (so long as actual underage models are not used in the creation of the art); actual child pornography is not. Despite Japan producing (and consuming) most lolicon media, there is no evidence that it causes violent crimes against children and teens. Their prevalence (as is the case for violent crimes in general) is well below that of most other countries.

Lolicon art is a frequent subject of scholarly articles on sexuality in Japan, and is often suggested to exist in Japan for the same reasons that adult women in high-school uniforms are considered attractive, and enjo kosai is popular. In many non-pornography-specific bookstores and newsstands in Japan, lolicon media is freely available for browsing and purchase.

Lolicon is frequently accused of being similar to or a form of pedophilia, particularly by westerners. Defenders of lolicon say that fictional material does not adversely affect children, and may in some cases help to relieve the sexual tension of actual pedophiles; opponents often say that the existence of fictional material encourages the viewing of children as sex objects.

Toddlerkon is another western term that appears to have originated from the 4chan imageboard; it is essentially lolicon that depicts girls younger than those in a typical lolicon manga/drawing, typically infants and toddlers (hence the term "toddlerkon"). Because many aficionados of lolicon find it distasteful and offensive, this sub-genre was created in an attempt to distinguish it from ordinary manga/drawings that focus on older prepubescents.


Etymology
"Lolita Complex" is abbreviated as "lolicon" (rather than "lolicom" due to the phonology of Japanese. Other foreign words with syllables ending in "m" are often transliterated in the same manner.

In its original meaning in Japan the term "lolicon" is not directly connected to the art. "Loli" denotes any sexual imagery featuring young girls and children, not only manga, but also actual photographs of child models ("Loli photobooks") and videos. In Japanese "lolicon" also refers to people who are sexually attracted to fictional or real underage girls and is often synonymous to paedophile.

The meaning of "lolicon" has changed in the West (similarly to words like anime, otaku and hentai). There "lolicon" is used to refer to a type of hentai anime and manga that contain sexual/erotic representations of underage girls.

END OF ARTICLE.

So basically, a "lolicon" anime, manga, or PC game is something that somebody with a Lolita complex would watch/read/play BECAUSE they have said complex (if you get my drift). Is Kanon one of those games?

Haeleth
2005-04-30, 13:43
Lolicon: originally Japanese, now used in English in contexts relating to Japanese popular culture. From "lolita complex", i.e. paedophilia.

The answer is, no, Kanon isn't lolicon. Lolicon involves young girls; personally I'd put the cutoff line somewhere around 14, and the youngest in Kanon is probably Shiori, whose birthday during the game is probably her 16th.

Don't let the childish faces of the characters fool you. The visual cue for lolicon is a flat chest; Kanon's girls all have more or less well-developed busts.

You needn't worry, anyway - there's nothing in the all-age version that would normally be considered lolicon. Not even Makoto's bath scene. ;)

Tagan
2005-04-30, 13:44
Well, since I'm 16, no. I din't play it because I have a Lolita complex since I'm the same age as the characters.
For other people...I don't know. I know that a lot of people would play the game because it's well written and interesting; and I just can't imagine people playing the game just for the H-scenes, since there are far better games out there for that.(With even younger characters :P)
So...I really can't imagine anyone playing this just because they have a lolita complex.

Although I can't rule out that possibility, I guess some people that play it might have one, but I doubt that's the ONLY or MAIN reason they play it.

2005-04-30, 14:13
So I guess Kanon would just artistically be very, VERY kawaii?

What first got me wondering enough to start this thread was the lolicon convenience store. I was wondering if the creators put that in there as an in-joke for their lolicon game. But I guess they didn't, since their game isn't loli.

I do have to wonder, WHY did Key choose to illustrate Kanon with such uber-kawaii young looking designs? I can understand that for a h-based game, but for a game with a story as strong as Kanon's, it seems a little weird.

Is that just Key's art style?

Haeleth
2005-04-30, 14:42
That's Itaru Hinoue's art style. She always errs on the large side where characters' eyes are concerned, and on the round side for their faces.

If you want a term to describe Kanon's art, you could do worse than "moë" - a form vaguely related to loli in that it uses childish features to boost a character's appeal, but differing in that the audience mostly interpret that appeal platonically, e.g. by feeling protective etc. rather than becoming sexually aroused.

The "lolicon" store in the backgrounds in various games isn't particularly related to their content; almost certainly it was an unrelated in-joke that the devs just kept putting in out of force of habit. (I believe Miracle Miki-pon was the artist responsible, which may explain the chain's sad absence from Clannad.)

kouryuu
2005-04-30, 15:14
yea, I definately can't see how anyone could chose a game like Kanon or AIR for Lollicon only, considering what it truly is.

I know I like playing it because the stories are excellent and can make you really empathize with the characters.

And on that note, I know here in the states, the "of age" for most states is 16.

DemonOfElru
2005-05-01, 05:48
"I do have to wonder, WHY did Key choose to illustrate Kanon with such uber-kawaii young looking designs? I can understand that for a h-based game, but for a game with a story as strong as Kanon's, it seems a little weird."

My answer would be that it's because Kanon isn't really an H-based game - it'd be more accurate to look at it as a game with H scenes, rather than a game based around H scenes. They are, after all, really quite peripheral to the main plot. There's even a version which removes them entirely (which would be my version of choice if I could actually purchase it).

AstCd2
2005-05-01, 06:36
I do have to wonder, WHY did Key choose to illustrate Kanon with such uber-kawaii young looking designs? I can understand that for a h-based game, but for a game with a story as strong as Kanon's, it seems a little weird.

Is that just Key's art style?

Interesting enough, it seems that Itaru herself doesn't consider her designs to be targeted at a lolicon audience, or indeed necessarily depicted in any sexual context at all. Though she's published numerous doujinshi featuring them, none of them (though I don't claim to have seen them all) contained anything more than 'moe' content. There's even talk now that Itaru's failure to sign up for Tomoyo After was the result of a conflict with Maeda over the decision to take the franchise 18+. Admittedly, it'd be a rather odd change of heart, given her consent to a string of 18+ games before Clannad, but it wouldn't be the first such staff disagreement.

Either way, I think it's impossible to categorize Kanon as a 'lolicon game' in any meaningful sense, given both the context of the plot with which the art is presented and the sharp contrast with the games that are clearly geared towards such audiences.

Slipgate
2005-05-01, 09:06
She may feel that she doesn't want Clannad going that route though if they did so well staying out of it.

Just like not adding cursing to a special edition of a family-friendly movie.

2005-05-01, 09:45
Do people think Key only made their first two games H so that they could make enough money to stay above ground?

2005-05-01, 09:47
Do you think Key only made their first two games H so that they could make enough money to stay above ground?

Slipgate
2005-05-01, 09:50
Well, it seems to be the case that Kanon and Air included H scenes because that was a common element of the games and they are almost "token" scenes (poorly written, etc.) that have nothing to do with the rest of the story. When Key got popular enough on their stories to possibly forego such scenes and have fans that wouldn't forego them as a result (as they might have if they hadn't had fans of their own yet and didn't have such a staple of such games). Then Clannad got to be all-age. But the creative staff have said they know not to completely never have H scenes ever, and now sometimes they have H scenes in stuff and sometimes they don't.

kouryuu
2005-05-01, 10:07
It seems to me this all goes back to fanservice and that first panty shot.

A lot of people that don't know the quality of the game might think:
Why would i want to spend hours pining over a virtual girl, if im not going to get anything out of it at the end?

I think that may be the reason Key included the scenes. although if anyone here has played a lot of other dating sim games, perhaps you could tell me if my friends idea really is the kind of trend with those games?

Slipgate
2005-05-01, 10:21
Well I mean, a datesim has as its point that you play a choose your own adventure to try and be in good graces with a particular girl, whichever one struck your fancy, and get that ending. Although the interface is the same, Kanon and Air are arguably (or at least said by some people) NOT to be datesims, because you're totally seeing all this drama play out instead that you're either helping or making worse depending on your choices, and exploring out a story rather than a scenario to satisfy interests. It's just that at the end they take whichever girl you've focused on the most, and if you get that girl's "good" ending, ... you do something with her which in the game story is sometimes kind of out of the blue. The interface is alike and you have a lot of female characters, but that's where I and I think some other people too seem to think the similarities between Kanon/Air and the basic datesim end.

That said, they were releasing a game that was LIKE a datesim into a datesim fan market. If there was no payoff at the end, people might not buy the game and then get turned onto the story. I mean, imagine releasing a Contra game where you don't use guns. Certain expectations for what are really out there... not just trends but just aspects of the genre. Now that they've established a real presence in the market they are more optional about these things. The all-ages versions being released within a year of the originals helped them be serious to what was going on in Kanon and Air.

That's basically it. Clannad didn't even bother to go adult in the first place then... and people were less concerned about that then they were like, "You're using a DVD and still no voicing? Wah."

Slipgate

Maceart
2005-05-02, 15:31
That's true. I've been trying to convice to people that not all Japanese textual novels are porn, but PC Gamer did something on this, and they "quote" said that over 80% of salarymen in Japan play virtual porn. They even called Kanon a "digital figue series". What travesty!

Back to the topic. No I don't think Kanon is loilicon. Lolicon is for all those Hongfire fetishers over at hongfire.com.

Haeleth
2005-05-03, 00:28
PC Gamer did something on this, and they "quote" said that over 80% of salarymen in Japan play virtual porn. They even called Kanon a "digital figue series". What travesty!
Why do people who feel the need to write articles on things they know nothing about never seem to think of, like, actually doing some research? -_-;;

Omgwtflolz X
2005-05-03, 06:52
And then when people who don't know anything about the subject read articles about it by other people who don't know about the subject, they believe every last bit of rubbish.

The irony of the Information Age.

Gah.

kouryuu
2005-05-03, 11:53
more like this mis-information age. The degredation of collective human intelligence.

Maceart
2005-05-03, 15:44
Sadly, since I was an avid PC Gamer reader about 3 years ago, I never touched Kanon when my sister got the fansubs for it a long time ago. I looked at it and actually said, "but it's PORN!" straight in her face when she watched the first episode. Man that was so sad.

kouryuu
2005-05-03, 16:23
lol. as long as you realize thats not true anymore, then its ok. ^.^