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DemonOfElru
2005-04-25, 20:47
... That Kanon is depressing? I'm not sure what to make of Mai's ending, but all the other stories had distinctly happy, fairy tale-like endings.

Tagan
2005-04-25, 23:00
Oops. Completely misread the message and posted a repsonse....Nevermind this. I need to get some sleep before my brain does anything else that is stupid. ^^;;....


Message after re-reading the message: Not sure, can't say so myself.
Mainly because I can't speak a word of Japanese. So I can only play to how far the patch goes. Although from the anime I got the impression that Shiori and Makoto die. Not sure if this happens in the game or not.

P.S: I shouldn't say 'I can't speak a word of Japanese' so much as I 'can't READ a word of japanese', since I actually can SPEAK quite a few words, reading, however, is a totally different matter.

AetherParadigm
2005-04-25, 23:16
Well, they're all heart-wrenching stories, really. I think tho the only depressing part is knowing what happens to everyone else once you've picked one path (esp. Nayuki's story, *sniff*)

Keisuke
2005-04-25, 23:34
... That Kanon is depressing? I'm not sure what to make of Mai's ending, but all the other stories had distinctly happy, fairy tale-like endings.

I don't think Makoto's ending was a "happy" ending. =/

AzureLight
2005-04-25, 23:49
I think it depends on what you feel about it. Shiori's was vague as hell and leaves you questions if you're thick. Mai was... well, maybe you'd expected it earlier if you had experience. Makoto's was sad, no doubt about it (well, you can argue that she finally did what she wanted to do thus satisfying her), Ayu's... geh. Nayuki was to me a bit weird because Yuuichi went a bit out of character for that.

Then again who am I to say. I've barely passed the 4th day playing it.

DemonOfElru
2005-04-26, 00:34
"Shiori's was vague as hell and leaves you questions if you're thick. Mai was... well, maybe you'd expected it earlier if you had experience. Makoto's was sad, no doubt about it (well, you can argue that she finally did what she wanted to do thus satisfying her), Ayu's... geh. Nayuki was to me a bit weird because Yuuichi went a bit out of character for that."

Obvious spoilers abound:

Jryy lrf, ohg veerfcrpgvir bs ubj inthr Fuvbev'f raqvat jnf, vg jnf fgvyy unccl. Ure zvenpyr unccraf, fur fheivirf ure vyyarff, naq lbh'er erhavgrq jvgu ure. Fvzvyne guvatf unccra jvgu Nlh (jub jnxrf hc va ubfcvgny nsgre ure fhccbfrq ynfg snerjryy) naq Znv (jub fbzrubj erpbiref sebz ure fjbeq jbhaq) - Xnaba pynvzf gung 'gurl'er pnyyrq zvenpyrf orpnhfr gurl qba'g unccra', ohg zvenpyrf pnc bss whfg nobhg rirelbar'f fgbelyvarf. Zl irefvba bs Xnaba zrffrq hc gur grkg qhevat Znxbgb'f raqvat, fb V'z abg dhvgr fher jung unccrarq - ohg gur raqvat fubg bs ure ylvat ba gur uvyyf jvgu Cveb fhttrfgf gb zr gung fbzrguvat fvzvyne bppherq jvgu ure (pbeerpg zr vs V'z jebat).

I suppose you could argue that Kanon is depressing insofar as that you can only really claim a miracle for one girl, but the plot really phases the others out as it progresses, thus concentrating only on the happy, rather than the sad. I just can't understand the comments I've heard around the internet about it being an unequivocally sad game - it's heart wrenching, to be sure, but the endings are all about putting a smile on the player's face.

Haeleth
2005-04-26, 01:41
I've rot13'd your spoilers, hope you'll forgive me. ^^

I think the main reason Western fans view Kanon as "depressing" is that they haven't played it, so the misunderstanding spreads very easily. Kind of like the "Key's games are the four seasons" meme, which generally begins with the crazy claim that ONE is set in the autumn/fall.

The other thing is that a lot of people who have played the game prefer to pretend the epilogues never happened. Someone at Key, probably Hisaya since it doesn't really happen in AIR, was obviously obsessed with happy endings.

Take away the epilogues, and you definitely do have the depressing game of myth. Arguably a superior one, too...

DemonOfElru
2005-04-26, 03:02
That's fine - thanks. I'd have done something similar, if I knew how. ^^

As for the epilogues, though: I can understand why people'd prefer to ignore them, but then, most of the stories don't have any real sense of closure without them. I get what you're saying, and I even agree to an extent, but at the same time, I know I'd have been very irritated to reach the end of any given Kanon story and see the narrative stop without any attempt at tying up loose ends.

Semi-spoilers, I guess ^^;

I mean, the epilogues do tend to detract from the poignancy of the various Kanon stories, but without those epilogues, the story just leaves Yuuichi hanging. You don't know how he's going to react to what's happened or how he'll cope with what he's experienced - the story just stops. In Ayu's case, the pre-epilogue ending is all the more unsatisfying because it leaves unanswered the question of jung rknpgyl unccrarq gb Nlh'f pbzngbfr obql. Lbh xabj vg'f bhg gurer, nsgre nyy.

Haeleth
2005-04-26, 05:54
That's fine - thanks. I'd have done something similar, if I knew how. ^^
Just copy & paste into http://tools.geht.net/rot13.html.

I guess my ideal Kanon would be one where all the endings were like Shiori's bad ending - the story plays itself out in the most pessimistic way, and we get sufficient closure, I think, from seeing Yuuichi left without any.

But maybe I just hate Yuuichi. ;)

DemonOfElru
2005-04-26, 06:08
Kanon actually has bad endings? I thought it was the epilogues or bust, but then, I've only played through once for each character, and my Japanese is rudimentary at best.

As for Yuuichi - I really wanted to smack the guy on occasion.

New
2005-04-26, 08:34
As for Yuuichi - I really wanted to smack the guy on occasion.

Seconded. Even I have a better memory than that guy. Yuuichi's proven himself a JERK on more then one occasion.

But his actions in the Shiori ending make up for it.

"Tabasco?"

"The enemy of all humanity."

GreatSaintLouis
2005-04-26, 12:06
My take, such as it can be after having only seen the anime, played through Haeleth's patch and a small ways farther in Japanese, is that it's considered a sad game not because of the endings, but because of the story before the endings. There's a sufficient amount of tension and drama that could definately be considered 'heart-wrenching', i.e. jura gur fgbel vf gbyq bs Nlh'f snyyvat sebz gur gerr, ohg orsber gur cynlre ernyvmrf vg jnf abg sngny, especially if the player is extremely involved in the story (which I suppose is a striving point for this genre of game). So in my opinion, there's definately the fairy-tale endings full of miracles, but the path you take to get there could definately tug at the proverbial heartstrings.

Or maybe I should just settle down and not get so involved in games I play.

AetherParadigm
2005-04-27, 08:14
I agree, even the pre-ending story is pretty heart wrenching, and I think Demon said sorta what I meant, that the depressing part is that you can only grant a miracle to one girl. And Makoto's story is still not exactly happy, tho I'll still say Nayuki's is saddest just because of how mean you have to be to the other girls, gung, naq, qrfcvgr chggvat hc jvgu rirelguvat sebz Lhhvpuv, Anlhxv vf gur bayl tvey jub jba'g qvr vs lbh qba'g pubbfr ure.

kouryuu
2005-04-29, 14:09
yea, I myself have only seen the anime and played through the patch, but i can agree its probably considered sad because of how the storys all play out right before the ending where your character of choice is granted the miracle.

I had a lot of fun playing with the makoto path, not sadness but maybe thats just cuz she's spunky. :) then i saw the anime, and was nearly heartbroken.

Same with Ayu and Mai's path.

Aldareon
2005-04-30, 07:12
In that case .. for those that have played the game, what do you believe should be the ideal playing order of characters for those that don't want to complete the whole game being left with a heavy heart? I understand that the order would have some variation due to character preference, but I'm just curious.

AstCd2
2005-04-30, 07:16
I present to you my entirely subjective 'happy ending scale'.

Happy
Nayuki
Mai
Ayu
Sayuri
Makoto
Shiori
Sad

P.S.
It's interesting to consider Yuuichi as the active agent in 'granting' the miracle. I hadn't really thought about it in that sense before (perhaps he is in the sense of his acts and their consequences, though of course never in any supernatural sense), but that's certainly the view taken (at times literally) by a number of anthology stories.

K
2005-04-30, 17:37
Wait. Sayuri ending?

How do you get that? ROT13 of course ^_^;

Slipgate
2005-04-30, 17:39
I don't think ROT13 will be necessary. It's a scenario that becomes available when you complete Mai's, so I understand it. Haeleth has said as much in non-ROT13 form. That's all I know and all I'll say :).

kouryuu
2005-04-30, 19:18
interesting.. i thought saryuri was more of a minor character... i'll have to try this when the patch is released.

AstCd2
2005-04-30, 21:21
As Slipgate says, a short Sayuri scenario becomes available after you clear Mai's scenario. The relevant choice is on 1/26. Sadly, it's not quite as love-love as you may think =P

New
2005-04-30, 22:04
As Slipgate says, a short Sayuri scenario becomes available after you clear Mai's scenario. The relevant choice is on 1/26. Sadly, it's not quite as love-love as you may think =P

Isn't that the one with the Mai/Sayuri yuri CG?[/utterly flat voice]

Keisuke
2005-04-30, 22:18
As Slipgate says, a short Sayuri scenario becomes available after you clear Mai's scenario. The relevant choice is on 1/26. Sadly, it's not quite as love-love as you may think =P

Isn't that the one with the Mai/Sayuri yuri CG?[/utterly flat voice]

No. That CG is not in Sayuri's scenario.

Vg'f whfg Lhhvpu'f rppuv vzntvangvba nsgre ernqvat nqhyg zntnmvar.

DemonOfElru
2005-05-01, 06:42
"It's interesting to consider Yuuichi as the active agent in 'granting' the miracle. I hadn't really thought about it in that sense before (perhaps he is in the sense of his acts and their consequences, though of course never in any supernatural sense), but that's certainly the view taken (at times literally) by a number of anthology stories."

Then, once you've locked onto one girl's path, the others basically drop out of the game. Who's to say that they _didn't_ get their miracles?

AstCD: Ayu's ending seemed more sugary than Nayuki's or Mai's, to me.

AstCd2
2005-05-01, 07:09
Then, once you've locked onto one girl's path, the others basically drop out of the game. Who's to say that they _didn't_ get their miracles?


There's definitely some ambiguity to what happens, but I can't really imagine any 'good' endings arising from ignoring any particular character, given that a good half of their scenarios are tied to Yuuichi personally in some way.


AstCD: Ayu's ending seemed more sugary than Nayuki's or Mai's, to me.

Well, I'm certainly willing to concede that the conclusion is more contrived than in the other endings, but as far as the climatic scenes of the respective scenarios go, Ayu's scenario seems more 'tragic' to me. I suppose that part of it has to do with the fact that I couldn't empathise with Nayuki in the final stages of her scenario at all.


The other thing is that a lot of people who have played the game prefer to pretend the epilogues never happened. Someone at Key, probably Hisaya since it doesn't really happen in AIR, was obviously obsessed with happy endings.


I suspect that Maeda is guilty of that too, though Hisaya does come off worse with both Ayu and Shiori.

Maeda Jun: Makoto, Mai, Sayuri
Hisaya Naoki: Ayu, Nayuki, Shiori


For reference:

One
Maeda Jun: Mizuka, Rumi, Mayu
Hisaya Naoki: Misaki, Mio, Akane

Air
Maeda Jun: Misuzu, earlier part of Minagi, AIR

Clannad
Maeda Jun: Nagisa, Fuuko, Tomoyo, and most of the sub-stories

Slipgate
2005-05-01, 10:09
For reference, when I said "that's all I know and all I'll say" is because I've only completed Kanon on Nayuki's ending. I say nothing because I don't know specifics of what's up with Sayuri's scenario, not to be wink wink about it or anything. I just realized I gave that possible impression.

kouryuu
2005-05-01, 11:00
For reference, when I said "that's all I know and all I'll say" is because I've only completed Kanon on Nayuki's ending. I say nothing because I don't know specifics of what's up with Sayuri's scenario, not to be wink wink about it or anything. I just realized I gave that possible impression.

I just played through the patch, but watching the anime, it seems like everyone has a sad -almost end- and that whichever girl you choose is the only one whose end gets "fixed".

I could be wrong though.

K
2005-05-01, 12:40
Well... the anime kinda mashed all the stories together (changed somewhat, obviously), but focused most on Ayu.

DemonOfElru
2005-05-01, 20:37
Plus the anime removed the romantic angle from all the stories exceptfor Ayu's and Nayuki's. It worked fine where Mai and Makoto were concerned, but it really wrecked Shiori's story, IMO.

K
2005-05-02, 11:16
Yes, but the alternative would be PLAYBOY YUUICHI.

kouryuu
2005-05-02, 12:16
Kanon: another series:

Yuuichi scores with every girl!

then they all find out... what will our brave hero do when all turn against him?

K
2005-05-02, 18:45
Heh. Kanon Gaiden, I guess.

Sounds like something you'd see on American TV though. And while I live in America, TV is foreign to me because I never watch it.

Spiritsnare
2005-05-02, 18:55
Gaspeth, I'm not alone! ::high-fives::

No, what I'd pay for is for a Kanoso anime to air and get fansubbed. >D

kouryuu
2005-05-02, 19:55
*high fives both K and spirt snare*

yea i haven't watched any in like a year or two either! I was just thinking harem anime gone wrong :)

Slipgate
2005-05-02, 20:08
I'll have to play Shiori's arc then, because I thought the anime Shiori was (censored)ing amazing.

The episode.... 9, I believe it was? Just.... too.... wonderful. I especially like seeing Nayuki and Yuuichi as on one wavelength talking to two people. The way Nayuki was able to advise him as a friend (or possibly more, if you wish to imagine the future). And "Was I always able to keep smiling?"

Slipgate

DemonOfElru
2005-05-03, 16:25
Well, I'm willing to admit that my opinion might have been slightly skewed because I'd played the game first. There were just too many things I'd hoped to see animated which ended up being ommitted.

Nandemonai
2005-05-03, 19:27
Well, having seen Kanon TV ... I can say that there are definitely way more depressing things out there. Take Planetarian, for example. That game/novel is one of the most relentlessly bleak things I've played/read in a good while. And I've been reading Saikano.

kouryuu
2005-05-03, 20:28
I've seen Saikano, thats was depressing. I just felt so sorry for both of them the entire time...

As for Planetarian, I loved It. My desktops have been versions of Revvie since I played it. It was kinda sad, but I still found Saikano much more depressing than Planetarian.

Maceart
2005-05-04, 16:31
Planetarian rules. It's not anyday that you read a novel so engaging, so emotional, so dramatic that I actually shed tears for the game.

Gentle Jena is a beautiful piece, and I really hope Planetarian gets animated like a anime movie/OAV or something. I can't imagine it taking place as a 13 episode series. Hopefully Kyoto Animation will animate it, since they did an awesome job in AIR.

K
2005-05-04, 18:23
Hopefully no tears as thick as gooey peach juice if they do though.

kouryuu
2005-05-04, 22:52
Planetarian rules. It's not anyday that you read a novel so engaging, so emotional, so dramatic that I actually shed tears for the game.


*grasps your hand in tears* finally... someone else who's willing to admit they cried their heart out for poor Revvie....


*wiping eyes*

adun50
2005-05-05, 02:31
you should play through Planetarian whilst it is raining outside, I did this once and it made me sad everytime I looked out at the rain that day.

AzureLight
2005-05-05, 03:37
you should play through Planetarian whilst it is raining outside, I did this once and it made me sad everytime I looked out at the rain that day.
Darn... are you traumatised now? If playing KimiNozo can make me hate hospitals, I can't imagine what Planetarian would do to me...

adun50
2005-05-05, 03:59
Darn... are you traumatised now? If playing KimiNozo can make me hate hospitals, I can't imagine what Planetarian would do to me...

well i did have to goto work later that day. but Planetarian also makes me wanting to goto an actual planetarian. though the closest one that I know of is in the city, which is an hour's travel for me :(

kouryuu
2005-05-05, 10:37
I don't even know of the closest planetarian to me.

It wasn't so much that it was raining in the story that makes you sad, as much as its constantly raining the whole time, never letting up, its really a dismal setting for the story, which was just so cruel....


*still searching for something that memory chip will work in....wipes tears*

Spiritsnare
2005-05-05, 18:45
Don't you guys mean planetarium? XD A planetarian, then, would be the person who dwells there (Revvie <3).

I've only been to a planetarium once in my lifetime, unfortunately...but when I was there, it was beautiful.


I haven't played Planetarian yet, due to my FOOLISH FOOLISH act of not getting that damn prepaid credit card when I had the chance yet. And I am not sinking as low as downloading it off someone's site. If Planetarian is as sad and as touching as everybody says it is...Key deserves the money, and so I will pay.

As AstCd2 said...it was an opportunity by the Western bishoujo game people to prove to the makers how much potential there is for a Western market...which was sadly thrown away. Heck, I'm suspecting to think that that 'opportunity' everyone speaks of was mostly only to get official translations to pirate.

K
2005-05-05, 20:58
You could download the demo and play THAT at least, though.

kouryuu
2005-05-05, 21:07
yea demos are all good, but for a visual novel like planetarian or Fate/stay Night, it just leaves you... empty and wanting the rest, because theres no conclusion or real buildup thats anything compared to the real story.

K
2005-05-05, 22:25
You know how some books show off the first chapter as a promo so you buy the book?

It's like that.

Spiritsnare [unlogged in]
2005-05-06, 08:22
I've played the demo...I need mooore ;_;

Tagan
2005-05-06, 10:21
Yeah, Fate/Stay Night really left me tortured...mainly because I DO have the full version, but I can read it about as well as I read arabic(Which is not at all).
So all I can do is look at the pretty pictures while I wonder what the hell is happening...heheh. Oh well, I guess I'll just play Fate/Sword Dance now...

Maceart
2005-05-06, 17:46
Man Key wasted this awesome game on a net-only release. They could have spent a couple more dollars, packaged it in a nice little box, along with an english translation, and make it their first foray into the North American market. $10 is very cheap if you ask me, for this very high quality visual novel.

Sniff..Sniff... Planetarian is so sad, I still remember vividly the awesome emotions pouring through during the mid climax of the novel.

zalas
2005-05-07, 12:20
Cheap distribution costs are probably why the game was so cheap. You don't have to press that many CDs, and you don't have to ship them out to stores. The limited amount they did press, they sold off to otaku as limited edition items. At this point, the marketing costs involved in bringing it over to the English speaking market would probably be pretty high for little or no gain.

Nanatuha
2005-05-07, 16:29
Hiring a decent translator also will be one of the costs.

However, I'm noticing a Nintendo DS's upper-figure lower-text game (http://www.gamespot.com/ds/adventure/gyakutensaiban/) will be sold well or not in the NA general market. Though I suppose that its success is probably difficult, but I'm glad as a consumer if knowledge of such the genre goes up even a little and following appears. (One of the sales of the game is going to be from me)

kouryuu
2005-05-07, 21:19
honestly, these are the types of games that you don't get to fully realize their great potential until after you've played one, which is why samples like that need to start trickling stateside, so the market that Key needs can develop.

Spiritsnare [unlogged in]
2005-05-11, 08:34
Well, they could just stop at the release of English demos...

Besides, with more pirated translated Planetarian downloads than actual 'licensed' downloads, don't you think the same thing can and will happen with Haeleth's Kanon/KanonSE patch, zalas's AIR patch, and Soulfang's (...I think?) CLANNAD patch, respectively?

kouryuu
2005-05-11, 10:26
any word on how far along those are anyway?

Kanna's plume
2005-05-14, 00:59
... That Kanon is depressing? I'm not sure what to make of Mai's ending, but all the other stories had distinctly happy, fairy tale-like endings.Try to Good Ending