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Unregistered
2009-01-24, 14:03
This new group called Dark Translations, which up till now has created patches only for games by Black Lillith, has decided to try something new and create a patch for a game based on commission. Here's what the news part says on the matter:

"After not having any objections to the idea, I decided to give it a go ahead and try it out. I'm rather uncertain that there will be any interest in it, but we'll see.

The main idea stems from H-manga translators, like SaHa and Desudesu, who accept community-driven contributions to translate H-manga. I'm hoping to do something similar to what they do.

The main problem is establishing a rate to charge. H-mangas have the advantage of being able to charge per page, but H-games are so large in scope and complexity, that even estimating the amount of sentences or lines therein can be an arduous task in itself.

At the moment, with the interest of doing commissions for H-games uncertain, I will simply negotiate and form an estimate on a game-by-game basis with the contributor or contributors involved. Something like an hourly rate could be done as well.

The other problem is actually having a way to translate the game. So, not all games will be doable. The game *must* be a kirikiri game OR a game that is compatible with OAGT OR has tools already available or in development. That said, there is a decent amount of games that are compatible with OAGT, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Of course, commissions won't work without sufficient interest or enough contributions to warrant doing a translation, so get the word out.

Please read the rules I posted at the top of the commissions forum and feel free to contact me with any questions if necessary. The rules are still very much in a "beta" phase so expect them to be added, removed, or changed.

Other than that, go ahead and start posting the games you most want to see translated and how much you're willing to contribute and see how it goes. I'll certainly be commenting and keeping watch as I can."

Also the owner of the site, Nephirin did make a post concerning legal/illegal matters concerning this:

"...I've been personally supporting the games I translate and even go beyond that (I'm in the process of ordering over $400 in games). I'm also under an affiliation program with dlsite that is giving them tons of hits and sales each month. Not only that, but I don't even use the money I earn from dlsite and have already given away over $60 in games and plan to do so again in the near future.

That said, there are *many* accomplished freelance manga translators out there who have been doing commissions for years and they have yet to run into any illegal trouble. You could even argue what *they* are doing is more illegal because they actually host and link to the mangas to download. I don't nor will host or link to pirated games.

That said, I've had talks with bvi22 (the maker of OAGT) and he's a nice guy, but I doubt he would object to me using a function in his program intended for the sole purpose of translating H-games. I am not selling his product nor anyone else's tools and plainly state when I use them (raziel2001au, for example, has generously offered his locale tools for me to use). I'm also considering working with bvi22 (aka paying him money) to make certain games compatible and/or adding functionality to OAGT.

The kirikiri tools that allow me to repackage .xp3 files are free for everyone to use. And again, I am not selling them.

The .xp3 tools are technically illegal by themselves because they break encryption (Lilith's games even include a file that says it's illegal to break them). So, you're free to criticize me there.

You could also argue that the script files I host are illegal, but I've already decided it's a necessary evil to do the work I do. It's a small technicality that could just as easily be applied to almost any fan-based related work. And again, I am not selling their work or the script file.

Lastly, let me be clear that every game that gets commissioned gets released to the public for free. I am not selling the games nor the translations themselves.

I would also like to note that my translation skills have significantly improved since my days of Asagi and I wouldn't be taking this step if I wasn't confident in my translation abilities.

I want to remain as transparent as possible about what I am doing so as to avoid any legal troubles."

Last I checked, they are currently considering a Black Lillith game called Elf Princess Nina (エルフ姫ニィーナ ), Saishuu Chikan Densha 2, and another game called Kansen and its sequel Kansen 3.

So any thoughts on this?

And just to let people know, I'm not the person in charge of the project (I can barely speak Japanese let alone read it), nor am I advertising for this site, I'm just posting this info to hear what other eroge players think.

GatoNegro
2009-01-24, 16:39
i don't know what to think, but i would never pay to translate or buy a game with just porn just like all the game that he have worked in.

NTX
2009-01-24, 18:50
He understands what he's doing is questionable, it more or less equates to translating someone else's book for money without their permission. That being said, if he's fully aware of the risk being caught and indicted, it's a lesser crime I wouldn't think twice about, like walking by those guys who sell burned cam movies on the sidewalk. It may even bring Black Lilith more sales in the end. If someone's willing to pay him for it, I don't have anything against it. I've thought about paying someone to translate a visual novel or two for me so I could enjoy it myself in the past (it's okay to dream), but I don't think there's much interest for games of black lilith's size. They mostly focus on h-content as well, and translation of h-content isn't all that necessary.

Ignosco
2009-01-24, 19:45
I've got no interest in this genre, and I'm not a translator, but just to add my two cents...

After glancing through two of the scripts from the games that Nephrinn's translated in the past, I would feel insulted if I had to pay for this. It's impossible to judge the accuracy of the translations as the original text isn't preserved, but in some places it reads very poorly in English (although some other parts are fine). From that, it's reasonable to infer that there are probably some inaccuracies in the Japanese to English translation too.

A few samples:

From The Gang Rape Club:

With feeling her body jump up greatly at once, Chiaki stopped moving and stiffened up.

Not knowing what her facial expression was covered by the blindfold, he had no doubt that perhaps she had a face that was indulging in the pleasure.

While listening to my heart jump about, with speaking the name of the person who had addressed me with a voice I squeezed out.

From Prison Battleship:

Blushing her cheeks, she floated a pleasure-filled smile like she couldn't believe what was happening, losing all awareness in the process.

Naomi spilled out blurred gasps upon merely having her breasts and butt lightly caressed, seeming to pin her down with rising carnal desires beyond bashfulness.

Unregistered
2009-01-24, 19:48
Actually, it's not just Black Lillith games or games like theirs he's willing to translate. I PMed him of the possibility of eroge that were dark just because of their story rather than the ero content such as Dies irae and G Senjou no Maou and he said he'd translate them if someone asked. A friend of mine also inquired about a Nitro+ (from the guys who brought us Phantom of Inferno and Saya no Uta) game called Gekko no Carnevale and was told it's translatable.

Starchanchan
2009-01-24, 19:52
*shrug* I guess if people are willing to pay enough for what they want, the fanbase can't really stop them. That said, once or twice I've had people offer to pay me for small translation/editing works in the past, but I always refused payment, as I've never felt comfortable accepting money for something like that. It's something I do in my free time as a fan, for fans, and it's not even my original work to begin with. Commissions for, say, artwork are different; they're creating original works specifically for the person paying for them. If Echoes of Thunder were a much smaller, less time-intensive project, we'd most just release it for free. Since it's an entire novel in VN format, though, and it's got a LOT of work put into it by everyone involved, it's more like an actual product to us.

Unregistered
2009-01-24, 20:00
Looks like he's interested in hiring a proofreader to help take care of the grammar mistakes

Unregistered
2009-01-24, 21:33
And just to let people know, I'm not the person in charge of the project
are you really REALLY sure?

Nephrinn
2009-01-25, 01:24
After glancing through two of the scripts from the games that Nephrinn's translated in the past, I would feel insulted if I had to pay for this. It's impossible to judge the accuracy of the translations as the original text isn't preserved, but in some places it reads very poorly in English (although some other parts are fine). From that, it's reasonable to infer that there are probably some inaccuracies in the Japanese to English translation too.

I've had this discussion before, but Japanese to English translation is an evolving process for me. I admit my fallacies. If you think those sentences are bad, go take a look at Asagi 1; it was almost a 1:1 grammatical reading, and I was still very much learning Japanese then.

However, keep in mind that *one* person translated those games for free and out of their own time. There are bound to be mistakes and parts where the English is awkward. I am not a professional nor claim to be. I am also not one to spend an hour on every sentence until it's sparkling perfect to the result of the project taking years to get done *if* it gets done.

That said, I am continuing to take steps to improve the quality of my translations. All future commissioned translation work will be proofread and revised before being released. My hope is that they will start edging towards professional translations, like Peach Princess. Unfortunately, that's not something that will happen over night.

I think dark games are some of the most neglected games in the genre and rarely do you see them translated to English let alone anything that's even remotely new. I'm in the position to change that and, while I have a tremendous amount of support, it is the critics that have really shaped what I've done and continue to do.

Toranth
2009-01-25, 06:52
On the practical side, as Ignosco mentioned, once you start selling something, quality becomes a serious issue. Just look at the way some people have reacted to Mangagamer.

On the ethical side, perhaps I'm just an old fogey who formed his attitudes back in the days when anime was traded around on tapes, but this seems perilously close to bootlegging, and bootleggers are the scum of the earth.

Unregistered
2009-01-25, 06:55
I think dark games are some of the most neglected games in the genre and rarely do you see them translated
And there is good reason why they're not!
They're short mindless stories (if one could even call them that) without any substance or plot.

Nephrinn
2009-01-25, 08:37
On the practical side, as Ignosco mentioned, once you start selling something, quality becomes a serious issue. Just look at the way some people have reacted to Mangagamer.

On the ethical side, perhaps I'm just an old fogey who formed his attitudes back in the days when anime was traded around on tapes, but this seems perilously close to bootlegging, and bootleggers are the scum of the earth.

Even so, I'm not professional like Mangagamer claims (or should) be. So, I don't think I quite have as much pressure on quality as they might have, but I do intend to push my translations to the next level of quality when commissions do begin.

Again, I am selling my translation skills; not the script nor the game. And I'm not sure selling is the right word here; accepting donations? It will be no different than the fan work I'm doing and others on this very site do and will always be released to the public for free.

I am not sure I understand the visceral reaction I've received from what appears to be a very small minority of people. I plan on working my ass off to provide the hentai community with at least decent translations of some great games in a very timely fashion (months, not years). I am a huge fan of h-games, but I also have a life that wouldn't permit me much time without a further incentive to do so. I believe I've taken a very reasonable path in finding a means that doesn't break any laws that any fan-based translation wouldn't break.

And there is good reason why they're not!
They're short mindless stories (if one could even call them that) without any substance or plot.

You're entitled to your own opinion of course, but I would digress. I'm not going to defend Lilith's games on the grounds of their story, but games like Gore Screaming Show, MinDeadBlood, and Dies Irae have huge followings because of their story.

Anath
2009-01-25, 10:07
You're entitled to your own opinion of course, but I would digress. I'm not going to defend Lilith's games on the grounds of their story, but games like Gore Screaming Show, MinDeadBlood, and Dies Irae have huge followings because of their story.

Yet, you're not doing any of those. Instead, you're doing what (looks like) porntastic dark games without a story worth reading in sight. As such, I stay far away from your site, and I don't plan to touch any of your translations with a ten foot pole.

...if you did happen to work on any Black Cyc games, I would naturally change my mind, shower you with praises, and want to have your babies (and proofread for you, but hey, order of importance :P)

Unregistered
2009-01-25, 10:49
Yet, you're not doing any of those. Instead, you're doing what (looks like) porntastic dark games without a story worth reading in sight. As such, I stay far away from your site, and I don't plan to touch any of your translations with a ten foot pole.

...if you did happen to work on any Black Cyc games, I would naturally change my mind, shower you with praises, and want to have your babies (and proofread for you, but hey, order of importance :P)

http://forum.darktranslations.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=160

Nephrinn
2009-01-25, 11:06
Yet, you're not doing any of those. Instead, you're doing what (looks like) porntastic dark games without a story worth reading in sight. As such, I stay far away from your site, and I don't plan to touch any of your translations with a ten foot pole.

Indeed and I can understand that considering this site caters to almost the opposite kind of audience. I'm not really sure that this should have even been posted here as it's just bound to draw controversy and disgust.

...if you did happen to work on any Black Cyc games, I would naturally change my mind, shower you with praises, and want to have your babies (and proofread for you, but hey, order of importance :P)

As Unregistered linked to, there's already been $200 proposed to translate MinDeadBlood.

As much as I love Asagi, I've actually been wanting to break out of the mold of the more porn-centric H-games and try something more popular and story-focused while still maintaining the dark theme.

GatoNegro
2009-01-25, 12:54
as i sayed, why games with just sex? if you changed that everything would be different, and i think that $1000 to complete an game is way too excessive and what genres can you work with? just VN and AVG? or RPG, Simulation and others may work too?

jyuichi
2009-01-25, 14:05
Indeed and I can understand that considering this site caters to almost the opposite kind of audience. I'm not really sure that this should have even been posted here as it's just bound to draw controversy and disgust.



As Unregistered linked to, there's already been $200 proposed to translate MinDeadBlood.

As much as I love Asagi, I've actually been wanting to break out of the mold of the more porn-centric H-games and try something more popular and story-focused while still maintaining the dark theme.

To the dissenters: If you don't like porn-centric titles don't play them, and if you don't like dark games don't play them: problem solved. I personally have nothing against them but am unlikely to donate towards their translation. Translating them doesn't hurt anyone.

To me the issue seems to be is it appropriate to be paid for making illegal patches? I'm not sure quite where I stand on this.... has anyone attempted to contact the publish and find out what they think of patches (applied to legal purchased copies)?

Nephrinn
2009-01-25, 14:06
as i sayed, why games with just sex? if you changed that everything would be different, and i think that $1000 to complete an game is way too excessive and what genres can you work with? just VN and AVG? or RPG, Simulation and others may work too?

The games I mentioned (Gore Screaming Show, MinDeadBlood, Dies Irae) aren't just sex and I'm willing to translate them or any other dark-themed H-games provided I have the tools necessary to translate them.

Non-traditional H-games aren't usually an option because they require custom designed tools to extract and repack the data. It's possible I might be able to hire a programmer to tackle something like that in the future, but for now I'd like to stick to easier tasks at hand.

And H-manga translators charge about $1.50 per page and most normal sized H-mangas go for well beyond $100 alone to translate. H-mangas also only take a few days at best to translate, while H-games take months of serious work. Based on that, $1000 is being overly generous.

That said, I'm currently weighing the interest and adjusting rates as need be.

Nephrinn
2009-01-25, 14:18
To me the issue seems to be is it appropriate to be paid for making illegal patches? I'm not sure quite where I stand on this.... has anyone attempted to contact the publish and find out what they think of patches (applied to legal purchased copies)?

Yes. A friend of mine (who is about to finish translating Lilia, a Lilith game) contacted Lilith soft about his translation work he was doing on their games and any possibility of having them buy the translations off him, but, not only did they promptly refuse him, but they told him not to translate any of their games (I think they told him it was illegal) and that *they* were already in the process of translating their games. Bear in mind that this happened over a year ago.

Asceai
2009-01-25, 17:30
$1000 is not 'way too excessive' - it depends on the game, really, but for the most part it won't reflect the amount of work involved - if Nephrinn was charging based on that, a good-sized VN would take several times that.

Unregistered
2009-01-25, 18:18
Well, prices are negotiable. All you really need to do is talk with Nephrin about it and you can probably work out a price that's fair to both of you. The guy who requested Elf Princess Nina was able to negotiate a price drop.

Starchanchan
2009-01-25, 18:40
Yes. A friend of mine (who is about to finish translating Lilia, a Lilith game) contacted Lilith soft about his translation work he was doing on their games and any possibility of having them buy the translations off him, but, not only did they promptly refuse him, but they told him not to translate any of their games (I think they told him it was illegal) and that *they* were already in the process of translating their games. Bear in mind that this happened over a year ago.

...wait, so you know they disallow translated patches, but you're doing them anyway? AND charging for them? That sort of puts it in a different light to me, unless I'm somehow misunderstanding you.

Anath
2009-01-25, 20:03
...wait, so you know they disallow translated patches, but you're doing them anyway? AND charging for them? That sort of puts it in a different light to me, unless I'm somehow misunderstanding you.
Doing translation patches anyway? Yes. Charging for said translation patches? No. The donations/charges are to be paid as some sort of incentive for translating a game, and in return those who do wish to pay for the translation have some choice over what they want to get translated. So the games that get chosen for this system may not necessarily be Lilith games. The translation patches themselves will be free for the general public when they're released.

Starchanchan
2009-01-25, 20:11
...I'm not talking about games in general; I'm talking about the conscious decision to translate games by a group that specifically refused to give permission to do so. And call it "charging" or "donation" or whatever you prefer, but it still equates to taking money for it if it ends up being a Lilith game that's chosen. Releasing them to the public for free doesn't have anything to do with my objection; it's the process that does.

(Apologies if I'm slightly incoherent right now; my brain's rather fuzzy at the moment from various combined factors. I kan talk gudd, I sware.)

Anath
2009-01-25, 20:28
...I'm not talking about games in general; I'm talking about the conscious decision to translate games by a group that specifically refused to give permission to do so. And call it "charging" or "donation" or whatever you prefer, but it still equates to taking money for it if it ends up being a Lilith game that's chosen. Releasing them to the public for free doesn't have anything to do with my objection; it's the process that does.

(Apologies if I'm slightly incoherent right now; my brain's rather fuzzy at the moment from various combined factors. I kan talk gudd, I sware.)
Mm... perfectly acceptable to me. I don't feel any particular way about this, I just wanted to clarify that the translation patches themselves are free. From your initial post here, it sounded like you thought people had to pay for the translation patches.

Unregistered
2009-01-25, 23:34
Whether they're free after the fact doesn't change that money was given for the patch to be 'made available' (in this case, "made" XD).

Starchanchan
2009-01-26, 00:02
No, I'm fully aware the released patches themselves will be free. I just find it highly offensive to the creators that he's making patches, whether any money is involved or not, when they've specifically asked that it NOT be done. I mean, in addition to VNs, I do scanlations, which is a bit different in terms of asking permission, but if I were ever approached by a doujinka and asked to remove a work of theirs, I'd do so without hesitation. But to knowingly translate and patch something when they've asked for it not to be done at all... well, that's kind of a slap in the face to them in my eyes.

Message
2009-01-26, 00:56
I would agree with Star. Doing something you've been literally told not to do is both disrespectful and morally questionable, but knowing that translations are already in the making it becomes even illogical to work on a patch by yourself. After all, for the time being there's little one can do but trust the authors' words on it.

I can understand how it can be tempting to work on a game you really like, even if you've been told not to, but working on a game that someone else likes, that should eventually get its own official translation, that is just hurting the industry. Nothing 'fan' in such a translation, if you ask me.


On the more general topic at hand, I do not believe asking money to translate someone else's work is right. If we had put up a donation button on mirrormoon.org two years ago, the odds are very much in favour of us having been RICH by now. Even up to the point of being able to license our own games. The reason why we will never choose to accept sponsoring is simply that these games do not belong to us. It does not matter what you will be using the money for, it's just not right to make any kind of money with someone else's work.
I think breaking copyrights isn't the same as stealing, as long as the breaker would never have bought the material anyway, but the moment someone starts making money off it it DOES become stealing. That money never belonged to you. It belongs to the authors and publishers.


Long story short, if you want to make money translating these games... Well, maybe MangaGamer is hiring?

zalas
2009-01-26, 01:59
Yes. A friend of mine (who is about to finish translating Lilia, a Lilith game) contacted Lilith soft about his translation work he was doing on their games and any possibility of having them buy the translations off him, but, not only did they promptly refuse him, but they told him not to translate any of their games (I think they told him it was illegal) and that *they* were already in the process of translating their games. Bear in mind that this happened over a year ago.
Other than this possible response, usually the best response you can possibly get from a game creation company is an appreciation from the company staff for the earnestness and work involved. It would be very hard for a company to simply come out and declare that they support a fan translation.

Nephrinn
2009-01-26, 02:53
Other than this possible response, usually the best response you can possibly get from a game creation company is an appreciation from the company staff for the earnestness and work involved. It would be very hard for a company to simply come out and declare that they support a fan translation.

Yes, and I got the impression that they were not at all being appreciative and I found it preposterous that they were treating him like a criminal for translating their games. We also agreed that they were bluffing on translating their own games and more than likely said it as a way to get the guy to stop. It was by no means a polite declination.

That attitude is what drove me (and probably him) forward in continuing to translate their games. Like it or not, I wouldn't be surprised if most companies don't like anyone translating their games because they consider it a potential moneymaker if and when it ever gets licensed. And we all know the utter hell it takes to get anything licensed.

That said, if a company came to me and asked me politely not to translate their stuff, I would naturally oblige. Bullying me to stop, however, won't fly.

Starchanchan
2009-01-26, 03:59
..."attitude" or not, they still told you not to. If they treated your friend like a criminal, it was probably because they strongly disapproved, and wanted to get their point across—and it looks like they did. It's obvious they weren't appreciative, hence the adamant refusal. The fact that you've chosen to disregard their wishes because you didn't like the way they refused irks me even more. Regardless of the way they've declined permission, the fact remains that they do not want their works translated.

Stranger
2009-01-26, 05:38
Like always, feel free to ignore my posts and just skip over them.

it more or less equates to translating someone else's book for money without their permission.I'll have to disagree with this example, when you translate a book, the translated *book* will be available for download, this is not the case here. It is more like making the a translation script for a foreign film that will still require the viewer to obtain his/her own copy of the DVD (legally or otherwise)

I just find it highly offensive to the creators that he's making patches, whether any money is involved or not, when they've specifically asked that it NOT be done. I mean, in addition to VNs, I do scanlations, which is a bit different in terms of asking permission, but if I were ever approached by a doujinka and asked to remove a work of theirs, I'd do so without hesitation. But to knowingly translate and patch something when they've asked for it not to be done at all... well, that's kind of a slap in the face to them in my eyes.No more fansubbed anime for you.... just kidding. A company will _NEVER_ give you permission to play (no pun intended) with their stuff even if they know that it will make them more money. Few years ago a group of fans tried to port System Shock 2 to the (then) advance Doom 3 engine and take advantage of the new engine. To play with their patch you had to own both System Shock 2 and Doom 3. Yet the group received a S&D latter from EA's lawyers. Companies can not and will not allow anyone to touch their IP without permission, since that will send a message to the world that it is alright to play with their IP. We already know that fansubbing is illegal and that Japanese companies hates us, so let us get over this topic.

I think breaking copyrights isn't the same as stealing, as long as the breaker would never have bought the material anyway, but the moment someone starts making money off it it DOES become stealing. That money never belonged to you. It belongs to the authors and publishers.how did you ever reach that logic? In my personal view, translation patches are more like a plug-in (so to speak) to the game. The original un-patched game is still needed. How did the person get his/her hand on the game is upto that person. The translator is not the player's nanny, s/he can't be held responsible for how the patch is used. Think about it, before you can hold a translator for the action of the players, you should hold gun manufactures for the use of their weapons and hold tax payers for the action of their governments.

(yes, I know that the patch is actually replacing files and it is not a plug-in. But whatever program being used by dark translation seem to force the game engine to accept plug-ins. That is good enough for me)

Long story short, if you want to make money translating these games... Well, maybe MangaGamer is hiring?good idea, actually how about opening your own company specialising in VN translation. Then contact the VN company and offer them you service for the "translation ONLY." Then let them handle the game script, QC and distribution. This might actually fly (no, I am NOT trying to make a joke here).

..."attitude" or not, they still told you not to. If they treated your friend like a criminal, it was probably because they strongly disapproved, and wanted to get their point across—and it looks like they did. It's obvious they weren't appreciative, hence the adamant refusal. The fact that you've chosen to disregard their wishes because you didn't like the way they refused irks me even more. Regardless of the way they've declined permission, the fact remains that they do not want their works translated.good point, dark translation might wish to reconsider this company's titles before they receive a latter from their lawyers.

errr... again, feel free to ignore my post before flaming me.

Nephrinn
2009-01-26, 05:43
..."attitude" or not, they still told you not to. If they treated your friend like a criminal, it was probably because they strongly disapproved, and wanted to get their point across—and it looks like they did. It's obvious they weren't appreciative, hence the adamant refusal. The fact that you've chosen to disregard their wishes because you didn't like the way they refused irks me even more. Regardless of the way they've declined permission, the fact remains that they do not want their works translated.

Then we are at a disagreement and likely differing views on current copyright laws, DRM, and the DMA. The attitude they take reminds me of self-righteous companies, like the RIAA and MPPA, who blindly threaten anyone with doom and gloom if you so as much think about ripping that CD onto your Ipod or, god forbid, sharing it with anyone.

The matter is only compounded by the fact that 99% of H-games will never get translated and, Japan's ridiculously strict exportation/licensing laws, aren't at all helping things.

With that said, I firmly believe that I am not hurting their company in any way, shape, or form and, if anything, I am bringing them more sales and interest in their products. If it were otherwise, I would not even be doing this.

Quite frankly, I do not care if they do not want me translating their works in the same way I do not care when I get a file that tells me that it is illegal to break the encryption when I extract the files from their archives.

To reiterate, I would bet that most H-game companies do not want their products being translated nor having the encryption broken on them, whether it is for the purpose of translating a game or sharing the CGs. That is, after all, why most companies package their files using proprietary tools.

Nephrinn
2009-01-26, 06:01
No more fansubbed anime for you.... just kidding. A company will _NEVER_ give you permission to play (no pun intended) with their stuff even if they know that it will make them more money. Few years ago a group of fans tried to port System Shock 2 to the (then) advance Doom 3 engine and take advantage of the new engine. To play with their patch you had to own both System Shock 2 and Doom 3. Yet the group received a S&D latter from EA's lawyers. Companies can not and will not allow anyone to touch their IP without permission, since that will send a message to the world that it is alright to play with their IP. We already know that fansubbing is illegal and that Japanese companies hates us, so let us get over this topic.

Which reminds me of the 3D Chrono Trigger remake a group of people were going to do when they got a cease and desist letter from the Squaresoft(?) folks and were forced to kill the entire project. That sort of attitude just pisses me off.

good idea, actually how about opening your own company specialising in VN translation. Then contact the VN company and offer them you service for the "translation ONLY." Then let them handle the game script, QC and distribution. This might actually fly (no, I am NOT trying to make a joke here).

That's actually what I was hoping on doing until my friend got that nasty letter telling him to screw off. It's sad because he's actually very fluent in Japanese (he lived and worked there) and takes translation quality very seriously.

good point, dark translation might wish to reconsider this company's titles before they receive a latter from their lawyers.

I highly doubt they will bother. As I said, I am under an affiliation with dlsite, who actually works closely with Lilith, and I don't think it would be in their interest to kill off a website that's making them money (300,000+ yen a year).

pbsaffran
2009-01-26, 06:20
Quite frankly, I do not care if they do not want me translating their works in the same way I do not care when I get a file that tells me that it is illegal to break the encryption when I extract the files from their archives.

Then STFU and do whatever you want, but keep quiet about it. If you can get paid for it, kudos to you, but don't expect to be able to piss all parties involved and still get official approval and recognition.

Stranger:
good idea, actually how about opening your own company specialising in VN translation. Then contact the VN company and offer them you service for the "translation ONLY." Then let them handle the game script, QC and distribution.
I'm not supposed to talk about it, but such a company is being discussed into creation (I'll keep the details) in Tokyo right now.
However, I can tell you from first hand experience that the european distribution market is tightly shutting off non-european companies. The translation "bureau" will either need to strike deals with the jp publishers, forcing them to impose the translation on the non-japanese publishers as they handle the price of the license, or to handle with possible home market publishers - and those are stingy as well as inexperienced when it comes to the kind of product.

Nephrinn
2009-01-26, 06:25
Then STFU and do whatever you want, but keep quiet about it. If you can get paid for it, kudos to you, but don't expect to be able to piss all parties involved and still get official approval and recognition.

That's probably the best piece of advice I've been offered yet.

And I apologize if I was the one who steered this into a legal debate.

Message
2009-01-26, 06:44
how did you ever reach that logic? In my personal view, translation patches are more like a plug-in (so to speak) to the game. The original un-patched game is still needed. How did the person get his/her hand on the game is upto that person. The translator is not the player's nanny, s/he can't be held responsible for how the patch is used. Think about it, before you can hold a translator for the action of the players, you should hold gun manufactures for the use of their weapons and hold tax payers for the action of their governments.
I was not talking about piracy of the Japanese game at the hands of the end-user, but the pirating of the authors' IP by the translator who is making money on that. My logic was something like this: The money people pay to see the game in English does not belong to whoever happens to be inclined to create a translation patch. It belongs to whoever the authors appoint as responsible to translate it. Thus if the the company does not appoint anyone, the money does not belong to anyone and as such should not be given to anyone either.

To bring it back into a more tangible domain, you could say it's simply a matter of ethics or morality: Someone is making money with someone else's property, without the owners consent. To give a personal example, I wouldn't want to see people making money with my installer scripts. Thus I would think twice about making money with someone else's installer scripts, too. The same goes for any kind of property that does not belong to me.

DaFool
2009-01-26, 07:10
I can't blame them. Belts and wallets are getting tighter for many people around the world so it's only natural to want to supplement your income with your hobby activities instead of further drain it.

The free ride's over. (This applies to all anime-related industries).

The positive development will be less complaining in general.

Apples
2009-01-26, 07:37
I think people are getting unduly worked up over this, and unfortunately it probably has a lot to do with the nature of Nephrinn's translations.
I realize that by trying to make money through translation, Nephrinn's probably irritating translators who have worked without profit (and often without much appreciation!) on games because they love them and want to share them. Perhaps this debate has less to do with legal issues and more to do with the personal baggage of the people involved.

Rather than knee-jerk responses, we need to be thinking about why the idea of someone making money by translating an H-game makes us so uncomfortable. What would be the reaction if someone were translating a more "wholesome" game, like Kanon or something, on commission?

All fan translation lies in a legal grey area; people just get worked up about whatever offends them personally, rather than what is objectively immoral.

pbsaffran
2009-01-26, 09:10
Apples:
I have thought about doing that when I was broke, but came to the conclusion that it would be a bad move in regards to the laws of all countries ivolved.

The problem in the situation at hand is, to me, not the proficiency of Nephrinn, but his (his, right?) attitude. He seems to view it a trifle matter to reverse engeneer the game, make his own brew of it, and is set on doing this no matter what the rightholders say - AND he expects to be paid (not much but still) and applauded for it. That is IMO not the attitude to take when you're tackling *illegal work*.

I mean, I am as guilty as sin myself - I *have* translated games, but I am also right now trying to get them officially on the french market - and I certainly don't expect to be paid until the deals are signed with all parties involved.
I'm kind of trying to "retkon" the legality of my actions here, I know, but it makes me feel better.

As for your question, the reaction would be very positive, then the translators would contact the rightholders and everything would fall flat, very probably, leaving a group of persons in the possession of a certain sum of money which they should not possess caught like deers in the flashlight of an international sue file.

Which is exactly why Nephrinn is going maverick. Rince and Repeat.

Starchanchan
2009-01-26, 09:36
Then we are at a disagreement and likely differing views on current copyright laws, DRM, and the DMA. The attitude they take reminds me of self-righteous companies, like the RIAA and MPPA, who blindly threaten anyone with doom and gloom if you so as much think about ripping that CD onto your Ipod or, god forbid, sharing it with anyone.

I would say that this is fairly different. You can't exactly compare a company that makes eroge to a much larger, broader company such as the ones you just mentioned. This is a more personal line of work, because it's smaller and and a more close-knit community, and I just find that you'd disregard someone's wishes not to alter their work simply because you disliked the tone they used when telling you "no" rather disgusting. It's not your place to decide that they're being unfair when they tell you this. If I didn't want someone altering something I'd created and poured hours and hours of effort into, and then was approached by someone who'd not only gone ahead and edited it without permission, but wanted me to pay THEM for something I hadn't wanted them to do anyway, and then got rather irritated that my work had been altered... I'd be livid if I found out they continued their work anyway after—and BECAUSE—I'd justifiably gotten upset.

I've never played any of your releases because the type of games you translate aren't my thing, so I can't comment on your translations other than the examples posted here, but based on this, any base respect I had for you as a translator is gone. You talk about attitude? Yours makes me ill. Talk about being self-righteous.

I'm sorry if I come across as being offensive, but this is a matter of respect, and as an artist in various mediums, it affects me deeply.

Moogy
2009-01-26, 09:47
Paying for translations is the most expedient way to obtain them.

All discussions of "morality" or whatever aside, this is an absolute fact.

Thus, Nephrinn's decision will likely be very popular amongst those who are not concerned with such "morality" or anything else discussed in this topic.

Which includes me. Ever since a scanlation group I was in commissioned around 400 dollars worth of manga translations, I've desired a similar service for eroge. There is really no difference at all between what Nephrinn is doing and what SaHa is doing, and nobody seems to have any complaints about SaHa.

Might I suggest perhaps widening your range, so to speak, though? You've already proven yourself quite capable of translating large amounts of Japanese text, so why not simply offer a flat "x kb of text for y USD" stipulation and forgo the whole "dark" bit?

Nephrinn
2009-01-26, 10:28
I would say that this is fairly different. You can't exactly compare a company that makes eroge to a much larger, broader company such as the ones you just mentioned. This is a more personal line of work, because it's smaller and and a more close-knit community, and I just find that you'd disregard someone's wishes not to alter their work simply because you disliked the tone they used when telling you "no" rather disgusting. It's not your place to decide that they're being unfair when they tell you this. If I didn't want someone altering something I'd created and poured hours and hours of effort into, and then was approached by someone who'd not only gone ahead and edited it without permission, but wanted me to pay THEM for something I hadn't wanted them to do anyway, and then got rather irritated that my work had been altered... I'd be livid if I found out they continued their work anyway after—and BECAUSE—I'd justifiably gotten upset.

I've never played any of your releases because the type of games you translate aren't my thing, so I can't comment on your translations other than the examples posted here, but based on this, any base respect I had for you as a translator is gone. You talk about attitude? Yours makes me ill. Talk about being self-righteous.

I'm sorry if I come across as being offensive, but this is a matter of respect, and as an artist in various mediums, it affects me deeply.

Your viewpoint is understandable, but I think the difference we have is that I am under the impression that I am doing what amounts to something created out of being a fan of someone's work. Just as a band may do a cover of another band's song at a concert or a fan creating a Star Wars mod for a game. That is a freedom I think we should all be entitled to. Don't get me wrong, I respect their work, but I do not think I should have to get permission to mod or translate it as long as I'm not claiming their work is mine and/or selling it as such. That is why I am at odds with their response because they didn't want anything fan-derived from their work.

There is really no difference at all between what Nephrinn is doing and what SaHa is doing, and nobody seems to have any complaints about SaHa.

No, there isn't and SaHa and others are doing far worse than what I'm doing or what I will ever do (hosting the H-mangas). Given they have no choice on the matter since they can't really offer the translation separate of the manga.

That said, I have a tremendous amount of respect for commissioned translators, like SaHa and desudesu, because they've contributed so many high quality translations of H-mangas to the community. In a way, I'm inspired by their work.

Might I suggest perhaps widening your range, so to speak, though? You've already proven yourself quite capable of translating large amounts of Japanese text, so why not simply offer a flat "x kb of text for y USD" stipulation and forgo the whole "dark" bit?

In the future, possibly. I'm still very much testing the waters to see what can and can't be done. For the moment, I would like to stick to what I'm comfortable with and work from there.

Agilis
2009-01-26, 11:06
I think people are getting unduly worked up over this, and unfortunately it probably has a lot to do with the nature of Nephrinn's translations.
I realize that by trying to make money through translation, Nephrinn's probably irritating translators who have worked without profit (and often without much appreciation!) on games because they love them and want to share them. Perhaps this debate has less to do with legal issues and more to do with the personal baggage of the people involved.

Rather than knee-jerk responses, we need to be thinking about why the idea of someone making money by translating an H-game makes us so uncomfortable. What would be the reaction if someone were translating a more "wholesome" game, like Kanon or something, on commission?

If someone wants to translate something for free like the rest of us, whether I value that thing or not doesn't matter; it's their time, their prerogative, and doesn't particularly affect me unless it's a project I'm working on already.

The name of the game changes when money starts getting involved.
I would love nothing more than to get paid to do things I enjoy doing, and guess what, there's a very clear and well established way to do that. Get in touch with some industry contacts, obtain the rights of translation, as applicable by local laws and int'l convention, and go make money off it somehow.

For such a plan to work, last thing I need are people who will give what I do a bad reputation amongst the relatively small world that is eroge production companies. From an outside point of view, there's very little that separates me from some other guy on the Internet in a foreign country that's outright going against the explicit wishes of the copyright holder, and on top of that, is collecting money on the side "to support those activities".


All fan translation lies in a legal grey area; people just get worked up about whatever offends them personally, rather than what is objectively immoral.

All translations are defined as derivative works, and the original author has all rights of authorship that they would normally enjoy across all countries signatory to the Berne Convention, which naturally includes the rights of translation, http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/8.html (among other articles). This is a legal fact for anyone that lives in a signatory nation, of which Japan certainly is, and many western nations, including the US, Canada, the UK.

It is not some legal "grey area", it's about as explicitly black as it gets in law. All derivative works must have their rights originating from the original creator, from song "covers" to "translations" to "adaptations", the realm of parody and satire and 'research/educational use' is more complex under fair use, but that doesn't apply here in the slightest. Don't confuse the fact that a company isn't _likely_ to throw a lawsuit at you for infringement with some notion that it's okay. If you want to say it's ethically or morally a grey area, go right ahead, but until the laws are changed, you're one court filing away from the block.

Starchanchan
2009-01-26, 11:20
Don't get me wrong, I respect their work, but I do not think I should have to get permission to mod or translate it as long as I'm not claiming their work is mine and/or selling it as such.
The fact that you're figuratively spitting in their faces suggests otherwise. Respecting their work, maybe, but respect for the creators? I see none.

It makes no difference if you claim the work is yours—you were explicitly told not to modify a piece of work they created, and you went ahead and did it anyway. That's just incomprehensible to me.

I can't even stomach replying to the rest of your statement. You don't seem to comprehend how offensive your actions are.

Nephrinn
2009-01-26, 12:12
It makes no difference if you claim the work is yours—you were explicitly told not to modify a piece of work they created, and you went ahead and did it anyway. That's just incomprehensible to me.

I find it just as incomprehensible that you are getting worked up about me doing a fan translation on a website/message board that was designed to talk about that very thing. And I'm brandished a lowlife for even suggesting money be brought into it never mind the steps I've taken to discourage piracy and to generate revenue for the companies' games I translate. If I truly had no respect for their work or the creators, I would not go as far. My disagreement is on their stance on fan derivations of their work and nothing more. You could also argue that they did not explicitly tell *me* anything as I was giving a second hand account of what they told my friend. Although I suspect their response would not be any different towards me.

I might not have any legal grounds to work on as Agilis brought up, but neither does anyone else translating a game they do not have the rights or permission to do.

Toranth
2009-01-26, 13:59
I find it just as incomprehensible that you are getting worked up about me doing a fan translation on a website/message board that was designed to talk about that very thing. And I'm brandished a lowlife for even suggesting money be brought into it never mind the steps I've taken to discourage piracy and to generate revenue for the companies' games I translate. If I truly had no respect for their work or the creators, I would not go as far. My disagreement is on their stance on fan derivations of their work and nothing more. You could also argue that they did not explicitly tell *me* anything as I was giving a second hand account of what they told my friend. Although I suspect their response would not be any different towards me.

I might not have any legal grounds to work on as Agilis brought up, but neither does anyone else translating a game they do not have the rights or permission to do.

Let me see if I understand what you are saying. You are going to continue making every translation you do available, for free, as a patch, to everyone. However, you are accepting donations (commissions?) to determine WHICH game you will do next? But the donator/customer is not going to be getting an exclusive copy of the translation, nor any other restriction on the distribution.

But then, why the comment about "enough contributions to warrant doing a translation"? That makes it seem like you won't do a game if people don't make it worth your time, in cash.

One of these attitudes seems to say you're still doing fantranslation work because you like it and want to share, while the other says pure profit motive. And when as many people here put as much time as they do into their work, the illegal profiteering is very distasteful.

So, if possible, please clarify what your position is. I think it would help the discussion significantly.

NTX
2009-01-26, 14:24
I'll have to disagree with this example, when you translate a book, the translated *book* will be available for download, this is not the case here. It is more like making the a translation script for a foreign film that will still require the viewer to obtain his/her own copy of the DVD (legally or otherwise)


It was an analogy. Cuz books and scripts both have... you know... words and stuff. I can also counter your analogy by saying it isn't that hard to crack open soft-sub files to read.

OBJECTION!!

Unregistered
2009-01-26, 15:29
You can't crack open a sub file to get the video, though.

Starchanchan
2009-01-26, 17:36
I find it just as incomprehensible that you are getting worked up about me doing a fan translation on a website/message board that was designed to talk about that very thing.

I don't think you quite understand my objections. It's not a matter of translating it, and it's not even about the money to me right now. Really, it's not even the subject or content matter at hand at all. It's a matter of defying someone's explicit wishes because you feel they're all high and mighty. When it comes down to it, it's the lack of respect for another person's personal work—purely because you didn't agree with the manner in which refusal of permission was given. It almost feels like you're doing it out of spite; that's how it came across to me. I most certainly do not agree with the fact that you're hazily accepting money for games that may end up not being translated if you don't receive ENOUGH money for them, but that's not the issue I'm pinpointing.

NTX
2009-01-26, 17:47
You can't crack open a sub file to get the video, though.

The script is also someone's creative property, you shouldn't put lesser legal importance on it because it doesn't contain the meat of what you paid for.

Unregistered
2009-01-26, 19:06
I think it's a good idea but maybe you should stop taking commissions on other games once you've started up a project? Considering you've translated more than four games it's clear you're not slow but I doubt you could finish one game in a month and yet you'll probably receive several proposals for new games a week. It wouldn't be long before people have paid money towards the translations of twenty or more games and you'd still be on your first or second translation.

Honestly, you probably shouldn't go with the idea of a starting commission price and then receiving amounts towards the full commission because if they happened to stop coming and you decided to stop translating you'd essentially be ripping off everyone that's already paid you, especially considering some may have sent you significantly larger amounts than others. You should probably use the 'starting commission price' as a point to tell which game you will start translating first and at that point not consider any other commissions (except the next project if you're quick enough). You could begin translating then, or wait until the entire amount has been confirmed by the commissioners but, if there's any chance you won't receive the full commission amount and say a certain amount of time passes (as a deadline) before reaching a certain goal, you'd pretty much have to give up on that project and send any money you've received back otherwise you'd never get anyone's trust again.

zalas
2009-01-26, 21:41
Yes, and I got the impression that they were not at all being appreciative and I found it preposterous that they were treating him like a criminal for translating their games. We also agreed that they were bluffing on translating their own games and more than likely said it as a way to get the guy to stop. It was by no means a polite declination.
There is no way you would be able to know whether they had plans to translate these games at the time, or whether it was a bluff because the staff was being cornered with a question they did not expect. For example, if aliens visited you tomorrow and posed an out-of-the-world question to you and sat there, waiting for you to reply, there would probably be a good chance that you wouldn't be able to answer the question to the best of your ability. By the way, if Lilith games are available through DLSite, then there may have been ongoing negotiations at that time (even if the negotiations broke down later) to let DLSite handle an English localisation via CuriousFactory, who normally handles English translations for DLSite.

LoSs
2009-02-02, 01:56
dozo http://i40.tinypic.com/iprxar.jpg

Starchanchan
2009-02-02, 05:15
dozo http://i40.tinypic.com/iprxar.jpg

Wow, thank you for posting something completely useless that will most likely spark even more wank several days after the thread's already been dropped.

Enerccio
2009-02-02, 05:42
dozo http://i40.tinypic.com/iprxar.jpg
lol I see what you did thar

Wow, thank you for posting something completely useless that will most likely spark even more wank several days after the thread's already been dropped.

Butthurt?

Nephrinn
2009-02-03, 13:55
I've been very busy, so I'll try to briefly address everything.

I think it's a good idea but maybe you should stop taking commissions on other games once you've started up a project? Considering you've translated more than four games it's clear you're not slow but I doubt you could finish one game in a month and yet you'll probably receive several proposals for new games a week. It wouldn't be long before people have paid money towards the translations of twenty or more games and you'd still be on your first or second translation.

Honestly, you probably shouldn't go with the idea of a starting commission price and then receiving amounts towards the full commission because if they happened to stop coming and you decided to stop translating you'd essentially be ripping off everyone that's already paid you, especially considering some may have sent you significantly larger amounts than others. You should probably use the 'starting commission price' as a point to tell which game you will start translating first and at that point not consider any other commissions (except the next project if you're quick enough). You could begin translating then, or wait until the entire amount has been confirmed by the commissioners but, if there's any chance you won't receive the full commission amount and say a certain amount of time passes (as a deadline) before reaching a certain goal, you'd pretty much have to give up on that project and send any money you've received back otherwise you'd never get anyone's trust again.

Actually, I'm not accepting anyone's money until I actually start the project. Everything in the 'commissions' forum is just proposed commissions and nothing more. I'm not even asking people to pay until I'm done translating the game. You might want to take a gander at the rules I've laid out in my forum.

Let me see if I understand what you are saying. You are going to continue making every translation you do available, for free, as a patch, to everyone. However, you are accepting donations (commissions?) to determine WHICH game you will do next? But the donator/customer is not going to be getting an exclusive copy of the translation, nor any other restriction on the distribution.

That's right.

But then, why the comment about "enough contributions to warrant doing a translation"? That makes it seem like you won't do a game if people don't make it worth your time, in cash.

It's a way of prioritizing the commissions set forth. Unlike H-mangas that can be translated in a day or two, H-games take much, much longer and thus must be prioritized by highest commissions.

One of these attitudes seems to say you're still doing fantranslation work because you like it and want to share, while the other says pure profit motive. And when as many people here put as much time as they do into their work, the illegal profiteering is very distasteful.

I do like it and I want to share and I will always share, but I do not like it enough to spend 6-8 hours a day, every day doing so. I have a life as I'm sure all of us do.

Again, I am taking after/mirroring what other commissioned translators are doing. Whether you find that distasteful or not is your own prerogative.

There is no way you would be able to know whether they had plans to translate these games at the time, or whether it was a bluff because the staff was being cornered with a question they did not expect.

I agree with you. There is no way for me to know for sure. I was simply basing my assumption off of market trends/demands and lack of announcements (still to this day). English Lilith translations? When pigs fly.

It's a matter of defying someone's explicit wishes because you feel they're all high and mighty. When it comes down to it, it's the lack of respect for another person's personal work—purely because you didn't agree with the manner in which refusal of permission was given. It almost feels like you're doing it out of spite; that's how it came across to me.

Well, you're quite right. I was upset by their reply and their unwillingness towards fan translations of their games, as undoubtedly many other companies would be. Let met put it this way, the RIAA would never give you or me or anyone else permission to share music, but do we still do it? You bet your ass we do. Does that mean we have no respect for the artists who make the music? No. In fact, many of us, including me, are more inclined to support the artists we like. Laws be damned.

I most certainly do not agree with the fact that you're hazily accepting money for games that may end up not being translated if you don't receive ENOUGH money for them, but that's not the issue I'm pinpointing.

Well, granted that is how commissions work, I do not see what is wrong with that.

Shinikenshi
2009-02-03, 20:14
Well, well. It appears things have gotten interesting in here. I think I'll offer some of my thoughts on the matter.

To start, I will make it clear that I do not support what Nephrinn is proposing whatsoever. As a purveyor of eroge and eroge-related products, I suppose I would benefit in knowing what has been translated and thus cater towards the base of customers who want eroge that has a translation patch available for it. However, I find that to be entirely beside the point and under the grounds of moral objection I do not support it. Frankly it matters very little in my opinion, but I would go out of my way to not carry products that have an available translation patch from Dark Translations as a simple act of defiance.

So why the hate? Why the anger some might say? Especially coming from someone like me who is rather known for caring very little about visual novels, eroge etc. etc.? Most of my annoyance is centered on the concept of accepting money for something that is ostensibly a fan-translation. I am not questioning the quality of the translation in any way shape or form however. This is not the place for discussing that kind of issue.

Yes I understand that it is "unfortunate" that someone who tries for several months to translate a game receives nothing. There is no glory. There is no compensation. There is only complaints that a translation took to long, or works for the wrong version that can't be found via torrents or Share. So what? Do these brave few deserve something for their work? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

...oh cruel world! How can you say something like that?

Simple. Those that choose to translate eroge, anime etc. do so because of the supposed "love" of the medium and the want to spread this love to others who have no ability to understand the works in the original language. When money gets involved however, it no longer appears to be the case. I understand that as far back as fansubbing anime had begun, that it was a common practice for people to offer donations to purchase LDs and other equipment to facilitate fansubbing. I do not support those measures either. What happens to these items that are purchased via donations? Are they magically disseminated equally to all those who donated or benefited from donations? Are they given away to somehow bestow another benefit of some sort? Hardly. One might say that if I was capable in Japanese back in the early days of the fansubbing I'd get all into it to guarantee that someone out there would finance my collection of anime LDs. All it takes is time... A terrible way to look at it, but it has a logic behind it.

The bottom line is that for translation of any sort to maintain even a degree of pseudo-legality is for it to be free. No donations, no commissions. Nothing. I do not make that statement like some anonymous freeloader who believes everything is free. That in itself is nonsense and a discussion for a different place. I make this statement because I believe involving money in the process degrades the purpose of fan translation. It is a tough job and I respect those that have slaved away to make translations possible. However, these people made that decision to take up a thankless job without compensation and that is the burden they must bear if they choose to walk down that path.

Well, you're quite right. I was upset by their reply and their unwillingness towards fan translations of their games, as undoubtedly many other companies would be. Let met put it this way, the RIAA would never give you or me or anyone else permission to share music, but do we still do it? You bet your ass we do. Does that mean we have no respect for the artists who make the music? No. In fact, many of us, including me, are more inclined to support the artists we like. Laws be damned.

@Nephrinn: Your logic doesn't quite work. Yes it is true that the RIAA will basically tell you to GTFO in regards to sharing music and all that fun stuff. But you thus compare this attitude and the laws governing the protection of intellectual property as akin to the attitude that Lilith Soft had towards your efforts? That is ridiculous. No legal body (such as the RIAA) has barred you from doing what you are doing. Instead it is the creators who are barring you from doing so. How is it showing respect if you defy the wishes of the creators? When NiN's Trent Reznor goes out of his way to distribute his music to fans via methods that drives the RIAA up the wall, it is a show of support when you are partaking in the exercise. If an artist is displeased with fans downloading their music for free, then it is perhaps it is rather disingenuous to be defiant.

Consider this conversation:
Some band: Hey, stop downloading our music for free!

Some guy: Screw you! Why should I have to pay for your music when I can download it for free? Oh, btw your new CD is awesome and I totally respect you guys as a band.

Some band: ...

And that is all. I now yield the floor to comments and things.

Stranger
2009-02-04, 02:53
The RIAA and the download of music is in no way related to the topic at hand. Lets stray away from that direction. But, for all its worth, he is not making the actual songs available for free, only the translated version of the lyrics.

that aside, I do understand where some of the comment are coming from (I had my own (un)fair share of co-workers being credit for my work). But in this case I really don't see where the harm is coming from, the company is being fully credit for their work and there is a chance of some extra sales. Lets face it, the translation is intended for people who do not understand the original language the work was made in. Asking these people to just wait indefinitely is unfair.

If someone is willing to translate this work, then I for one am willing to pay for it. And yes, I would pay for Clannad translation if Velocity7 (spelling!) ever asks for it.

@Nephrinn, you really might wish to think of opening a company and approaching them officially to translate their title for a modest fee. Who knows... they might actually bite.

P.S. comments for Japanese speaking players that we "should wait" because that is the fair thing to do, do NOT count. Unless s/he is going to stop importing/downloading eroge and only get what have been translated into English. (note, only the "should wait" part doesn't count since they are not doing it themselves)

Message
2009-02-04, 06:07
Asking these people to just wait indefinitely is unfair.
Such a notion hinges on some latent feeling that people have some kind of right to play the games in a language they can understand, which in reality they do not. So yes, asking people to wait indefinitely is, in fact, entirely fair.

Nephrinn
2009-02-04, 06:09
Consider this conversation:
Some band: Hey, stop downloading our music for free!

Some guy: Screw you! Why should I have to pay for your music when I can download it for free? Oh, btw your new CD is awesome and I totally respect you guys as a band.

Some band: ...


I see it as:

Some band: We don't want you doing covers of our songs.

Fans: You can't tell us we can't do covers of your songs.

In other words, I do not think of fan work being quite in the same light. Maybe something more akin to Disney telling kids they can't draw Mickey Mouse™.

I won't get into a debate about the ethics or legalities over what I'm doing because I'm over that, but I will point out that having an incentive to translate H-games, especially so for H-games, creates a guarantee that it gets done quickly, efficiently, and qualitatively. I pointed this out before to my friend, but people aren't going to be complaining 6 months or a year down the road when they see all the translated H-games DT has given to the community. Such a feat would not be possible, either for me, or anyone else without that incentive.

I love H-games and the genre, but love only goes so far before it becomes work. I need only point to the already exhaustively long development time of fan translated H-games, most of which get delayed and/or lose interest to prove that point.

@Nephrinn, you really might wish to think of opening a company and approaching them officially to translate their title for a modest fee. Who knows... they might actually bite.

My fear is that it'll have the reverse effect of them telling me to screw off and, in a sense, putting me in the spotlight for legal trouble should I defy their wishes. But, that is really ultimately what I want to do. If anything, I'll probably see if mangagamer will hire me before going to individual companies. That said, I really need to get a mainstream game under my belt first.

pbsaffran
2009-02-04, 06:29
If anything, I'll probably see if mangagamer will hire me before going to individual companies.

As long as you stick to english sentences (as opposed to "Please Sensei, insert your dick inside Mika's asoko") you should be fine. Just make sure you make a decent living when negociating prices.

appztetra
2009-07-11, 20:34
why are you people bugging them...they're just doing their job we should be grateful that they are translating the game....

zalas
2009-07-12, 16:39
*psst* You just revived a 5 month old thread <_<;

Unregistered
2010-03-27, 18:04
It's hilarious because half the people who disagrees with what Neph is doing is just going to end up going to his site and use his patch anyways and we all know it. If it doesn't effect you why do you care? You are 1. Not paying, 2. practically getting a free patch.