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Wererat42
2008-07-22, 12:07
A realization hit me recently; why are games written and developed by KEY have so much more following than any other bishoujo game when they all follow the same basic structure? Is it that KEY is more or less the innovators and everyone else is the imitator? Is it superior writing? Atmosphere? Character design?

In my opinion the answer is the emotional involvement. They've used the same basic, yet effective strategy of opening a story with lighthearted comedy and puppy love in the first half only to hit you with a freight train of Greek drama-level tragedy in the second half. It is very hard to go though one of these stories and not at the very least get watery eyes.

I'd like to hear what others think about this.

Asceai
2008-07-22, 12:15
I dunno.. to be honest, I haven't really noticed KEY games having that much more following than others. Although currently Little Busters! EX seems to be attracting more attention than anything else that's supposed to be released in two days, there's nothing else that notable there.

I don't think KEY really have that much more of a following than any of the other eroge heavyweights - TYPE-MOON, Nitroplus, Alicesoft, Giga etc, nor have I really noticed them having an unusual amount of attention of late. Where are you talking about, by the way? 2ch?

OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol
2008-07-22, 13:19
According to past sale figures, Key was beaten by elf, ALICESOFT, Leaf and even C'sWare when they released "Kanon", nearly equalled by Leaf (and a minor title to beat!) when they released "Air", beaten by TYPE-MOOn when they released "CLANNAD", and beaten by TYPE-MOON, Leaf and August when they released "Tomoya After". Their highest sales ("Air" and "CLANNAD") were in the 100,000 but Kisaku" and TH2XR reaches that while F/sn and F/ha exploded this figure.
So, "so much more following than any other bishoujo game"? Uh? I'd join Asceai in how I don't think they have "that much more of a following than any of the other eroge heavyweights".

Billhead
2008-07-22, 14:25
Because nobody else has Shiori.

kouryuu
2008-07-22, 16:00
In the english side of the market Key has a larger following for probably several reasons: First, Kanon I think was the first major game to have anyone working to translate it into english. Heck, that's how this forum got started anyways: Haeleth created it and people talked about the hacking/translation of Kanon. Now it's expanded to include many other fan-translators who've started their own work on other games and more. So from this realization you can tell: To the english community, Kanon is essentially our roots, our first step into the genre to begin with.

Secondly, We all know how popular Fred's Megatokyo is, and just as long ago, he expressed his interest both in-comic and out-of-comic in regards to the visual novels by key, which I think was likely the first real waving spread to the American audience.

So I don't think KEY has a bigger english following due to anything the company itself has done, but because a few devoted fans to said company took the effort to talk about it and work on it when no one this side of the ocean knew what they were or gave a care. So to the english world I'd very easily say Key, particularly Kanon and Air is our Roots into the Visual Novel world. Just like the fan following for certain classic, genre defining and genre changing anime still have a large following even today.

I do however think this is going to start changing very soon with people like Mirror-Moon and other groups bringing out many other games of this genre into english for the new generations to start with. That's how it is in Japan: Key is but another company in a sea of companies doing the exact same thing, so the companies that put out more: Leaf, Alicesoft, etc, sell more and get more recognition. The biggest thing with Key is they never stop printing their old games: You can still pick up Kanon, Air, as well as Clannad and Little Busters. Which makes them different from the rest who generally stop printing the game after a few years.

JRaiKetchum
2008-07-22, 17:58
Konban wa minna!

My two cents:

I think alot of Key's popularity comes also with the fact that there are some who say that you are not a true otaku until you've experienced Kanon. They're just the product of becoming a forerunner in a niche market which draws attention from the mainstream. Same deal as TYPE-MOON.

Another 'key' aspect in their popularity comes from the fact that they produce a VERY high quality product. Crisp graphics, engaging stories, music that draws you in, etc. With their stories being more inline with "love overcoming despair" which is a tried and true formula (look at any dramatic romance "chick flick" :P), there is more of an emotional bond with the characters. A more recent example of this working for another company would be the ef series by minori (or at least in the anime since I haven't played the game... yet ^^;).

I think the final tip of the hat to Key comes from the fact that they are kinda like the Squaresoft/Square-Enix of visual novel companies, willing to push the envelope. (from what I've seen at least, feel free to disagree with me.) Few products, but big impacts. ;)

Okay.. so that was maybe more like three cents than two... *hurriedly scratches out two and replaces it with three*

Ja, ne
-Rai

Asceai
2008-07-22, 20:05
I think alot of Key's popularity comes also with the fact that there are some who say that you are not a true otaku until you've experienced Kanon.

I guess I'd sorta agree, but I'd also lump Tsukihime, White Album, To Heart et. al in with Kanon. =P

Wererat42
2008-07-22, 20:34
I dunno.. to be honest, I haven't really noticed KEY games having that much more following than others. Although currently Little Busters! EX seems to be attracting more attention than anything else that's supposed to be released in two days, there's nothing else that notable there.

I don't think KEY really have that much more of a following than any of the other eroge heavyweights - TYPE-MOON, Nitroplus, Alicesoft, Giga etc, nor have I really noticed them having an unusual amount of attention of late. Where are you talking about, by the way? 2ch?

Really? I didn't realize that.

I agree that TYPE-MOON has some great following, especially after Fate/Stay Night. But the others... Nitroplus I only know from Jingai Makyo; Alicesoft through the Rance seires, and Giga... never heard of it.

I don't know about 2ch. All I ever see there nowadays is Strike Witches.

To the english community, Kanon is essentially our roots, our first step into the genre to begin with.

Yes, I'm probably biased as a English-speaker whose first taste of bishoujo games came though ONE and CLANNAD, but I'm sure that a lot of the genre-defining aspects for story and character came from KEY works, such as the light-hearted first half and the dramatic second half.

they are kinda like the Squaresoft/Square-Enix of visual novel companies, willing to push the envelope.[quote]

Ah, I couldn't have put it better myself. Look at every RPG after the first few Final Fantasies. No one was willing to break the formula and be the one to create something new and revolutionary. So what we get is a bunch of stock characters with every imaginable hairstyle and hair color. And every time one of there comes out I can mutter 'I see the ending' not unlike Katsuragi Keima.

[quote]A more recent example of this working for another company would be the ef series by minori

Oh, yeah. Very unmanly tears were shed after I saw that. I just hope I can understand it after I start my studying abroad this Fall.

JRaiKetchum
2008-07-22, 21:15
But the others... Nitroplus I only know from Jingai Makyo; Alicesoft through the Rance seires, and Giga... never heard of it.

Giga, formerly Technical Group Laboratory (TGL) (who has come back to release the all-ages versions of Giga's games) ... I've really only seen two series as their hits: Variable Geo series of fighting games which aren't VN's (except for VG:Rebirth) and the games released by Team Baldrhead (Baldr Force, Baldr Bullet, Duel Savior, etc.)

-Rai

Asceai
2008-07-22, 21:17
Yeah, but their franchises are BIG hits. Baldrhead, Parfait, that sort of thing.

Same as age, really; you don't have to have a wide range to be successful. Look at TYPE-MOON!

Unregistered
2008-07-22, 22:12
I think the final tip of the hat to Key comes from the fact that they are kinda like the Squaresoft/Square-Enix of visual novel companies, willing to push the envelope. (from what I've seen at least, feel free to disagree with me.) Few products, but big impacts. ;)


I would say that Alicesoft would fit that analogy better.

Agilis
2008-07-22, 22:27
Key is primarily popular in the English world because it among the first top tier games that made it here "first" with all it's animation adaptations. There's plenty of top tier eroge brands/houses, but if you asked a random person in the English fandom to name a few, you'd be lucky if you got Key, and Leaf.

It simply has the largest group of people who are willing to shout loudly that they know it and love Key. Most of it is simple 'me too'ism. Meanwhile us fans of other groups mostly don't feel the urge to shout loudly about this or that brand, because we know all we'd get is a "who?".

If top tier game like Muvluv, Moshiraba, or even ef were animated and launched here before Key's stuff. History would probably be different just by first mover advantage alone.

ChronoEX
2008-07-22, 23:04
That's really hard to say, because Kanon and AIR were pretty huge even if we ignore the English community for a second. Yes, I would agree that the first move in anime adaptions might be (no, DEFINITELY) a reason for their popularity, but I'm pretty sure that applies in Japan and other places as well, and not just US or wherever alone. If other companies made a move first in getting a certain series into the US, there will of course be more diversity, but some fact will still remain unchanged.
I mean, why else would the song Tori no Uta be the Japanese otaku's national anthem (or so my host brother says)?

Quite frankly, I'm not too crazy about KEY, since I don't really like their style of story telling (having played Kanon and part of AIR up to this point), and I don't care much about their anime adaptions.

luckyovermind
2008-07-22, 23:16
V.G.series WAS popular --> but only in the old days.

And there's that big family of GIGA PB, nekonekosoft is one of them.

Unregistered
2008-07-22, 23:31
Giga, formerly Technical Group Laboratory (TGL)

They're still TGL. Many companies use different brands to differentiate between adult and non-adult releases (and/or different product lines).

As of now, they don't do much all-ages development, so we rarely see the TGL label.

Nitroplus I only know from Jingai Makyo

NitroPlus had a huge hit in Demonbane. However, they've definitely lost sales steam, despite having one of the best track records in terms of player reception.

Yeah, but their franchises are BIG hits. Baldrhead, Parfait, that sort of thing.

Sorta. While they lack any power hit (in terms of PC-NEWS numbers, we're talking about a peak of maybe 25,000 units for the most successful releases), they release many solid hits.

And there's that big family of GIGA PB, nekonekosoft is one of them.

You're referring to distribution not ownership, right? In Japan, not many publishers distribute their own games, so everything gets left to a small handful of companies. GIGA is one of them.

Enerccio
2008-07-23, 01:28
Crisp graphics
LOL WUT???

Asceai
2008-07-23, 02:33
LOL WUT???

They really did. Kanon and AIR had some of the cleanest, nicest art at the time of release. They also paid an unusual amount of attention to the backgrounds, which were generally neglected in visual novels before up to that point.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/4460/air3yz4.jpg

I mean, come on. It's no Sekien no Inganock, but it's definitely not bad for 2000!

Clannad would have looked very nice at the time of release (compared to what was out) if it was released in 2002 like it was originally going to be. But sadly, both it and Little Busters! are generally a bit behind in terms of graphical quality... but that's fine, really, because the stories in both games are exceptional.

OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol
2008-07-23, 04:14
That's really hard to say, because Kanon and AIR were pretty huge even if we ignore the English community for a second.As I wrote, sure, but according to hatena's sale figures, they were not the most popular ever, may it be back then or now. They're in the top tier, most certainly, but in terms of popularity Leaf and ALICESOFT probably equal them while TYPE-MOON easily crushes them.
I don't think anyone here discuss the fact Key is in the top tier, just disagreeing about how it's way more popular than the other companies in this tier.

Enerccio
2008-07-23, 05:44
asceai: well dunno but if I compare Air to One, I see that latter is better....

Asceai
2008-07-23, 11:28
asceai: well dunno but if I compare Air to One, I see that latter is better....

Er... no? It's basically the same art style, but far less quality in the background and character art. Post a CG from ONE that equals what I posted above. I dunno where you got the idea that Kanon and AIR had crappy graphics, but it's plainly not true.

Enerccio
2008-07-23, 11:30
maybe its just style issue?

Unregistered
2008-07-23, 12:19
How does style come into the equation when discussing "crisp graphics"?

Enerccio
2008-07-23, 13:39
it has to do with me saying "Yuck" over Air graphics and "Quite good, albeit old style" on One.

drmchsr0
2008-07-23, 14:06
To counter the stupidity in this thread, I introduce an even stupider idea: the laser-shotgun.

Okay, with that out of the way...

Key is top-tier, yes. However, top-tier does not mean quality. In terms of Narrative, Tsukihime beats all of Key's works up to Tomoyo After, and probably rivals CLANNAD. Kanon feels like an amateurish work when compared to the likes of Utawareruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu~mono and maybe the To Heart series (though I've never played the games myself), G senjou no Maou, Sharin no Kuni or on a much lesser scale, Fate/Stay Night.

Unfortunately, the appeal of Key isn't in the narrative, but in the emotions that is wrought. Key is very good at twisting our emotions to ensure we come out crying at the end, and usually feeling a little better about ourselves. Otaku are a very hard bunch to please, and even harder to evoke a sense of pity from. Any game or company that can do so essentially gains legendary status for doing so.

That is why Key is so popular.

PS: A pox on ye, Agilis, for denpaing me!

OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol
2008-07-23, 14:39
Key is top-tier, yes. However, top-tier does not mean quality. In terms of Narrative, Tsukihime beats all of Key's works up to Tomoyo After, and probably rivals CLANNAD. Kanon feels like an amateurish work when compared to the likes of Utawareruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu~mono and maybe the To Heart series (though I've never played the games myself), G senjou no Maou, Sharin no Kuni or on a much lesser scale, Fate/Stay Night.In terms of narrative, I put Nekoneko Soft and Nitro+ in high esteem as well and light surprised me quite often.

Asceai
2008-07-23, 14:53
also, although they were pretty much one-hit wonders for their respective studios, SWAN SONG and Cross Channel are top-tier narrative pieces too.

EDIT: yes, I know SS was by both studios, but still...

Actually, now that I think about it, it's probably not smart to name specific eroge companies, but rather scenario writers.. SWAN SONG's writer, for example, also wrote Kira Kira and CARNIVAL. Cross Channel's writer is famous (mostly for Cross Channel, I'll admit) for being a pretty great scenario writer, no matter which name he's using.

zalas
2008-07-23, 18:28
My guess as to why Leaf and Key seem so popular _on the Internet_ is that they broke onto the scene with their representative works right around the time the world wide web started taking off. Leaf released their notable visual novel trilogy right around the middle of the 1990s, and Key polished their nakige formula in the late 1990s.

Nanatuha
2008-07-25, 07:26
As a measure the sales figures would be not always accordance with popularity. Just as Titanic is the most profitable movie ever but I don't feel it necessarily has the largest followers as well.

Saying from my personal feeling (a.k.a. baseless), I think Leaf, Key, Type-moon were the companies who had the almost same scale of most influential and creative fanbase ever. Recently other media than visualnovels --The idol m@ster, or just Nico Nico movie, etc.-- seems more attractive for those talents though. As for the reason of the particular popularity, I think many explanation are to the point.

OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol
2008-07-25, 07:28
As a measure the sales figures would be not always accordance with popularity.However, it's more objective than fanboys ramblings, and can be checked.

zalas
2008-07-25, 10:22
I guess as far as Nanatuha's comment regarding creative fanbase is concerned, we could also check the amount of (still image) MADs, arrangements, doujinshi, doujin games and fanfiction short stories related to the games. Maybe due to having a creative fanbase, more people have heard of (but not necessarily bought) Leaf, Key and TYPE-MOON than the other brands.

Leo_Otaku
2008-07-25, 11:34
I believe it is the of the story telling, art, character design and of course music. I could really not care so much for type-moon or any others really. I mean they haven't done anything too exceptional or new. I know type-moon just started working on new titles about time. Milking their fate/stay night franchise for all it is worth....

Unregistered
2008-07-25, 12:26
Another factor in the US is the release of really pretty anime, which is actually accessible to non japanese speakers. When you have high profile anime like Air and Clannad, you get a lot of fans that haven't even read the visual novels.

Nanatuha
2008-07-26, 05:18
However, it's more objective than fanboys ramblings, and can be checked.
Isn't the figures including the direct sales by KEY, and it can't be confirmed how many was, can it? I thought the direct sales number was likely quite a few then. Of course I don't have the determinate information to it though. :P

If you want something objective, I could say the three companies at least once had lure not especially appearing by the sales figure, by the fact that no other companies except them have had a individual code in Comike ever. However it's also just one aspect of popurality, not determinative at all.
http://www.comiket.co.jp/info-c/C75/C75genre.html

Nanatuha
2008-07-29, 04:41
... Necromancy?

Well, one last time. I came across a interesting theory today.
It's not why it's popular, but why an Eroge related form is unpopular.

It's quite long text for me. There would be engrishes here and there, but go easy on me please. >_>


http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Lobotomy/20080509/p1

Why eroge discussion has been declined:


Past Otaku hobbies needed huge premise knowledge. If younger generation wanted to discuss something, it's difficult for them to compete with veterans, or compete with their accumulated knowledge.

While wanting to know about something you like is quite natural feeling whether as an Otaku or as not an Otaku, when you thought you found something new, they would deny it and spitefully say there already has been similar thing for a long time. (But I wonder if responses like this inevitably would be end up to call Greek mythology?)

It's not because they were clearheaded. Nor they've studied hard. Just because they lived long, and much experienced than youngers.

But, from nowhere, one day an genre emerged in the Otaku world which unknown to the older generation.

That was Eroge. Here Eroge I mention is not including primitive MS-DOS era type, but the Visualnovel style that started by "Shizuku".

While the system was an imitation of Soundnovel of SNES and also the scenario was obviously clear to being influenced by a existent book, but still, I think bring it into the adult media was novel idea. Then thanks to the aid of "Kizuato", "ToHeart", a large amount of similar games was produced. Then Eroge discussion scene was born.

Eroge was suitable for discussion due to its story-centered nature. And as you can specially see in the Key's game, which represents Visualnovel, many of them adopted a style that leaves interpretations for reader. Even just talking your affinity for your favorite characters could admitted as a respectable impression. So eroge discussion flourished.

I have a printed review titled "The critical point of bishoujo game" here, written by Eroge elites of at that time. In this review referred materials for reviews are almost only Eroge.

It means people were qualified enough for an Eroge discussion if he was just playing Eroge at that time. Eroge of this period was not far advanced, and because the amount was absolutely less than Manga or Anime, it was not too difficult to talk inclusive summarization.

But pride goes before destruction and an haughty spirit before a fall. People have left from Eroge discussion gradually.

Why? Simple. Because the number of archives of Eroge have been piled up and swelled as well as Manga and Anime as years.

Even if CLANNAD interested someone new who watched anime adaptation, and he start playing, the moment when he say an comment a veteran Eroge player attacks him demonstrating "Then, have you played ONE.?". Inevitably newcomer decreased. Eroge discussion has been declined.

tea panda
2008-07-29, 12:30
If someone gets discouraged simply because they aren't watching everything/playing everything other people have, then they shouldn't even be calling this stuff a hobby in the first place. You do stuff because it's fun/you're interested in it. If someone recommends me an eroge/anime/manga/whatever, if I have time or if I'm remotely interested I'll give it a look. Otherwise, it doesn't really bother me if I'm missing out on a few things.

There's way too much stuff in general to explore in one lifetime. We're always picking and choosing our spots. I don't see how someone can get intimidated by that.

Chronoscout
2008-07-29, 22:36
Hmmm why is key more popular...it's not one thing... it's everything imo

they have better music, better art, better writing and they aren't afraid to use moe.

alot of other companies create VNs just as sex games with little thought to story or atmosphere.

i laugh at some of the lesser VNs i've played when i see crapy or poorly done CGs... i mean most VN only has 5 CGs tops per character most of the time (not including the 3 oe 4 variants of the important scenes)

Key takes the time to do them right imo... and i still listen to tori no uta (the theme song from air)

however i'm not sure they can hold top spot much longer. the other companies have seen what works now and they have been closing they gap.

I think if Navel used better music it could beat Key

Asceai
2008-07-30, 01:17
Navel sucks nowadays. They could write a good nakige to save their lives. The days of Two One and Cherry Petals are sadly gone (yeah, I know the rerelease of the latter is coming out, but STILL). I've totally lost faith in them.

i laugh at some of the lesser VNs i've played when i see crapy or poorly done CGs... i mean most VN only has 5 CGs tops per character most of the time (not including the 3 oe 4 variants of the important scenes)
Actually, I consider Key to be a company that needs to use a lot more CGs than they currently do! Every Key game I've played, there's been numerous moments when something awesome/epic has happened, and I think 'Gee, it'd be nice if there was a CG of this.' Even Clannad, known for being extremely long, only has about 175 CG, compared to other games of similar length like Haruka ni Aogi with over a thousand. And I'm not just talking titles that have an unusual number of CG (like the ef games, with tens of thousands of them).. I'm talking your average visual novel. I think most of Key's titles could, in general, do with about three times as much CG as they currently do.

Either way, I consider the actual company to be a relatively transient thing. AKABEi SOFT2 holds the top spot in my eye, but realistically it'll probably just go to whoever Looseboy decides to work for =P Ultimately, visual novels are the creation of the scenario writer that writes them, and everything else (the art, the music, the voice acting etc.) is just polish. Very nice polish, but polish nonetheless.

Ignosco
2008-07-30, 02:49
Actually, I consider Key to be a company that needs to use a lot more CGs than they currently do! Every Key game I've played, there's been numerous moments when something awesome/epic has happened, and I think 'Gee, it'd be nice if there was a CG of this.' Even Clannad, known for being extremely long, only has about 175 CG, compared to other games of similar length like Haruka ni Aogi with over a thousand. And I'm not just talking titles that have an unusual number of CG (like the ef games, with tens of thousands of them).. I'm talking your average visual novel. I think most of Key's titles could, in general, do with about three times as much CG as they currently do.
It might be more accurate to compare the number of base CGs a game has to get a better idea of the amount of art is has, as variations of a CG are (most of the time) a lot quicker to produce. Clannad Full Voice has 68, which is still way too few, especially since it took a few years to make. Little Busters - EX is much better in that respect, having 143, but then again it is an updated version of the original. I don't own Haruka ni Aogi or the ef games, but it would be interesting to know how many base CGs they have.

Asceai
2008-07-30, 03:00
I know that variations are a lot quicker to create, but they really do add variety, and they certainly take time to create. It's not fair to discount them entirely (in fact, I'd be a lot happier if Key used more variations).

I'll go do a count of ef -a fairy tale of the two-, just using base images. Be back in a while =P

There: ef -a fairy tale of the two- contains a total of 1181 _base_ CG. But it's unfair to compare that to anything--most eroges of that size wouldn't have a tenth of the amount of CG. There's a ridiculous number of variations too.

On the other hand, Haruka ni Aogi has a far more subdued 83 or so base CG, but like I said, you can't discount the variations; some CG have more than twenty variations. In addition, Haruka ni Aogi has a huge number of paper dolls (sprites, tachi-e, whatever you call them) and uses them very, very well. Not as well as Katakoi no Tsuki or Magic A Ride, but still far more interesting than Clannad or LB!EX

Ignosco
2008-07-30, 04:57
Asceai: Thanks for the numbers. Yep, I agree with what you - the art, particularly the CGs are for me the weakest part of Key's work. I guess there's the possibility that Key's artists are just slower than others in the business.

On topic - I guess while Key might not necessarily be the best at any given area, they haven't released a dud or even an average game yet. The same can't be said of too many other companies. It's certainly not the only reason for their popularity, but having the same consistently good core team working on each game really helps with their reputation. Although, I wouldn't say Key titles are more popular than those of the other big eroge companies.

OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol
2008-07-30, 07:48
alot of other companies create VNs just as sex games with little thought to story or atmosphere.

I think you're biased.

i laugh at some of the lesser VNs i've played when i see crapy or poorly done CGs... i mean most VN only has 5 CGs tops per character most of the time (not including the 3 oe 4 variants of the important scenes)

I think you're very biased.

Since we mentioned other top tier game makers, I'd suggest you to play their games to get a different experience... even if most don't make VNs. But, then, I don't really know what you meant by "VNs" --that is, if you really meant "Visual Novels" or as a synonymous to "erogees".

It might be more accurate to compare the number of base CGs a game has to get a better idea of the amount of art is has, as variations of a CG are (most of the time) a lot quicker to produce.

"AYAKASHI" has over 1000 base CGs, 4499 if you include the variant CGs and 5533 total CGs. Sure, "4499" includes base and variation CGs, but it's impressive enough to not discount them.

Yes, it's an ADV and not a RPG (pointing it out because a RPG has more CGs due to special effects, an ADV being more "static" by nature; for instance, Spitan has 49225 CGs)

Chronoscout
2008-07-30, 23:29
ef is definitely huge and rules over all with quanity of base CGs. to clarity we're talking about the splash CGs not the normal talking pics and the different clothing/emotion ones or backgrounds.

there are many others that shine above the rest but we're speaking of the rank and file of VNs (eroge or otherwise).

Key has better scenarios and better character development. something many VNs miss is that it's the flaws that make characters more compelling not their strengths

What i really want to see is other companies put as much into the music as Key does. (not to turn this thread into something other than what keys strenghts are) I think very few companies have done as well as key in the music department.

Voice acting is also one of Keys strenghts. while it may just be polish they do it well.

one last thing that i didn't add before is the anime they have done for thier games.

good or bad it's publicity even Kanon 2002 and how it sucked in virtually everyway still brought them more fans simply by making them better known

Enerccio
2008-07-31, 02:04
Hmmm why is key more popular...it's not one thing... it's everything imo

they have better music, better art, better writing and they aren't afraid to use moe.

alot of other companies create VNs just as sex games with little thought to story or atmosphere.

i laugh at some of the lesser VNs i've played when i see crapy or poorly done CGs... i mean most VN only has 5 CGs tops per character most of the time (not including the 3 oe 4 variants of the important scenes)

I laugh at you. Game doesn't need great graphics...
Take look at umineko, recently. There is what, maybe three (if I am very very counting) CGS, and art is quite bad, but it beats every single Key game up to date /both in music and story/.

OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol
2008-07-31, 03:53
Voice acting is also one of Keys strenghts. while it may just be polish they do it well.Uguuuuuu? Are you really talking about Key? The "we don't voice our games" Key? You're joking, right?
No, really.

Asceai
2008-07-31, 04:00
Ehh.. to be fair, they've voiced everything after Clannad. And voicing games still wasn't THAT common back in 2004, especially long ones (e.g. Fate/stay Night wasn't voiced)

OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol
2008-07-31, 07:31
Ehh.. to be fair, they've voiced everything after Clannad.Just tell me... How many Key games does that make, heh?

And voicing games still wasn't THAT common back in 2004, especially long ones (e.g. Fate/stay Night wasn't voiced)F/sn was the first game of TYPE-MOON, which was then still A BRAND NEW company, so it's hardly a good example. OTOH, name me major brands that didn't voice (even partially) their games by 2004. Heck even most minor brands did!

Unregistered
2008-07-31, 09:56
What i really want to see is other companies put as much into the music as Key does. (not to turn this thread into something other than what keys strenghts are) I think very few companies have done as well as key in the music department.

Key's composers continue to write some catchy tunes, but in terms of complexity and arrangement quality, they're way behind the curve.

That's the main complaint I have against the studio. They found a successful formula, but for too long, they've done little to reinvent themselves or to keep up with the times. Audio/visual quality isn't so stunning anymore (seems quite dated, to be honest), while the stories have become overly familiar.

zalas
2008-07-31, 10:06
That's the main complaint I have against the studio. They found a successful formula, but for too long, they've done little to reinvent themselves or to keep up with the times. Audio/visual quality isn't so stunning anymore (seems quite dated, to be honest), while the stories have become overly familiar.
I'm wondering if a Rewrite would fix that...

Thank you, I'll be here all night. Try the taiyaki!

Chronoscout
2008-07-31, 11:24
I'll definitely say Key has some issues with working from a formula. if they stick to it too long (some might think it's already too long) it could hurt thier future popularity

popularity is more about mass appeal. other games might have better music but it's the catchy tunes that bring the masses.

For me quality voices must meet a few criteria. good acting/believablity, no compression flaws and the voices must match the characters. even the smallest bit of garble from lossy compression spoils the games immersion for me

Asceai
2008-07-31, 11:40
I'm wondering if a Rewrite would fix that...

Thank you, I'll be here all night. Try the taiyaki!

That's what I think they're doing, especially with the change in scenario writers. Hopefully we'll see a bit of a Fresh Key from Rewrite on.

Enerccio
2008-08-04, 18:22
I was also wondering why key games are being told as good games. Despite Planetarian which was very sad and moving and original, the rest is rather weak. I mean, what is so special about story in clannad, in kannon, in lb (although I haven't played that one so I can't say)?

Kealdrea
2008-08-04, 19:24
I was also wondering why key games are being told as good games. Despite Planetarian which was very sad and moving and original, the rest is rather weak. I mean, what is so special about story in clannad, in kannon, in lb (although I haven't played that one so I can't say)?

Hold on, let me pull out my scientific chart that gives irrefutable proof as to why Key games are extraordinary...

:P Okay, that would be impossible, because this is all a matter of opinion. Even if a countless number of people like a game, there will always be someone (in this situation, you) who doesn't like it because, for whatever reason, it doesn't appeal to their personal interests. This doesn't make a game good or bad, it all depends on the person playing it.

Enerccio
2008-08-05, 05:05
but the point is... the story ... is kinda weak.... I mean its just like any eroge out there, you have guy, girls, each has her own problem, maybe supernatural, maybe not and thats all..

also lets not froget all this "death" business. Everything revolves around death or nearly death, or coma or something along this in key games. And that gets tiring.

Also, for the graphics.... I dunno, but compare kanon or clannad to Utawarerumono (2002 game!) and see the results...

Unregistered
2008-08-05, 10:38
Also, for the graphics.... I dunno, but compare kanon or clannad to Utawarerumono (2002 game!) and see the results...

Nah, let's give 'em a chance here. Compare Kanon or Clannad to Tsukihime.

Asceai
2008-08-05, 11:34
I think AIR looks nicer if you compare AIR to Utawarerumono. Then again, maybe I just don't like Leaf's style much.. =p

I thought TH2 + TH2AD looked pretty out of date by those standards, compared with.. say, Purple Software's recent stuff.

JRaiKetchum
2008-08-05, 11:36
I think this is starting to get repetitive now =/

Ms. Kealdrea summarized everything up neatly with that it is all OPINION based as with any artistic form. I think music like Rap/Hip-hop is the closest thing to pure garbage and Classic Rock is awesome whereas some people think the opposite. Same deal here. There is absolutely NO WAY to quantify if a certain game/company is better than another! (This is coming from someone who's trained in the scientific field) We can throw out all the sale numbers, literary reviews, artistic critiques we can but it all comes for naught.

I think this thread has gone and made it's point.

-Rai

Asceai
2008-08-05, 11:43
The thread was doomed from the start, because it was started based on a false preconception caused by misinterpreting the English-speaking side of the visual novel fandom as representative.

The fact is that we don't have AKABei SOFT2*, CROSSNET, Purple Software, minori, age, nekonekosoft etc. fansites, but we sure do have KEY (and probably Type-Moon) fansites. (or, at least, I think we do. who knows). In addition, few games are actually reviewed by English-speaking people; we have some reviews around the place, like narg+ayyo's erogereview, that old site that had reviews for games like Dousei, Shizuku, Kizuato etc. and various others scattered around. On the whole, there isn't much, though, so the stuff that is reviewed the most often is perceived as being more popular.

*maybe I should get onto that! =P

Enerccio
2008-08-05, 12:22
Nah, let's give 'em a chance here. Compare Kanon or Clannad to Tsukihime.
no
tsukihime is 2000 doujin game

asceai: don't worry, there will more about akabe sfot 2 when you make english patch ;)

Chronoscout
2008-08-05, 19:49
This thread is about Keys popularity. not if you like Key games or not.
It doesn't matter if you love Key, Hate Key or fall somewhere inbetween.

What in your opinion is/are the reason/reasons why Key is so popular

one thing i haven't heard anyone talk about was the marketing and advertising. Did anyone see any ads for Key games when they first came out?

I'm curious if they had better TV spots, magazine ads or instore displays than other companies games?

Plus i thought of another thing Key does is game difficulty... one wrong choice can lead to a bad end. I think the type of person who enjoys VNs also like a challenging game.

I think the fact that a VN gets translated to english proves it's popularity for the most part. The english VN market is quite small so you only buy games that are sure to sell. The fact there are fan translations is definitely another sign of popularity. Todate no Key VN has been professionally translated to english. if they did i'd buy it

zalas
2008-08-05, 22:24
I'm curious if they had better TV spots, magazine ads or instore displays than other companies games?
Um... I seriously doubt eroge get TV spots... As for magazine ads and instore displays, they probably get the same treatment as any other popular company. By the time Key was founded, I'm pretty sure the staff was familiar enough to the eroge world, due to their previous release, ONE.

Plus i thought of another thing Key does is game difficulty... one wrong choice can lead to a bad end. I think the type of person who enjoys VNs also like a challenging game.
Played Soul Link yet? :p

I think the fact that a VN gets translated to english proves it's popularity for the most part. The english VN market is quite small so you only buy games that are sure to sell. The fact there are fan translations is definitely another sign of popularity. Todate no Key VN has been professionally translated to english. if they did i'd buy it
Are you talking about fan translations or commercial translations? Viability of commercial translations are based as much on networking and willingness of Japanese companies as on viability of the product in a market.

Asceai
2008-08-05, 23:38
Played Soul Link yet? :p

oh god, I have bad memories of that. I must have seen the same set of bad ends so many times over.. what a headache that was.

thankfully, getting the other 'routes' was extremely easy, and didn't require going back far at all

That said, if it comes to difficulty, Kagetsu Tohya and Fate/hollow Ataraxia have got pretty much EVERYTHING beat =P

kouryuu
2008-08-06, 03:43
Played Soul Link yet? :p

Oh man, yea, I just loved the fact that it had a bad ending available in the trial no less. Not even what, 10-15 minutes into the game? and you can get an ending where everyone dies. That moment was priceless.

OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol
2008-08-06, 04:55
That said, if it comes to difficulty, Kagetsu Tohya and Fate/hollow Ataraxia have got pretty much EVERYTHING beat =PIndeed, the loop story of KT was very hard to break.

As for "bad end if you make bad choices", heck, you can die during the demo of some games, such as AYAKASHI or 11 eyes! Fate/stay also has numerous dead ends. Really, I never found Key's games any hard to achieve.

Asceai
2008-08-06, 11:23
Actually I found almost all of the choices in Ayakashi and 11eyes to be.. fairly obvious. I BAD END'ed a couple of times on both, sure, but it generally just took jumping back to the last decision point to fix; not like picking the wrong option fairly early on in some games and that coming back to BAD END you much later on. That's why, even though Himawari (blank-note) has a lot of bad ends, it's still pretty easy to get the path you want once you work out what the main branching decision is.

Out of Key's games, though, ONE is almost indisputably the hardest in that regard. Mean, mean game >_<

Unregistered
2008-08-06, 11:48
Lol so now Key games are popular because it has difficult choices? Next thing you know, someone will say that Key games have deep gameplay. Why not just have a circle jerk now and let this thread die.

rg4619
2008-08-06, 12:03
Out of Key's games, though, ONE is almost indisputably the hardest in that regard. Mean, mean game

Can we even refer to that kind of design as challenge? Arbitrary choices that lead to a good or bad outcome artificially force the perception of difficulty (key to success = trial and error, which isn't a meaningful activity of any kind). However, it's just bad design.

IMO, player choice is only appropriate if the options/outcomes are both logical and meaningful. I don't want to have to reload an hour later (and then try to track down which arbitrary choice is the problem) because I decided to "Turn Left" instead of turning right.

OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol
2008-08-06, 12:23
Actually I found almost all of the choices in Ayakashi and 11eyes to be.. fairly obvious.My answer wasn't about the difficulty part but about the "number of bad ends" part and also the "it has a bad ending available in the trial" part.

luckyovermind
2008-08-07, 20:03
Did I mention that I absolutely LOVE one of AIR's bad endings?

That's when misuzu and yukito standing back to back, then with a signal, they both walk in their own directions.

The feeling I got at that moment was PRICELESS, definitely my favourite scene in the entire story of AIR

Chronoscout
2008-08-08, 11:41
Um... I seriously doubt eroge get TV spots... As for magazine ads and instore displays, they probably get the same treatment as any other popular company. By the time Key was founded, I'm pretty sure the staff was familiar enough to the eroge world, due to their previous release, ONE.


I'm not really looking for probabliities but first hand knowledge. The question at hand is "Why are KEY games more popular than others?" We have to examine all the facets of what Key does to gain a deep enough understanding of "why" they are so popular...imho


Played Soul Link yet? :p


no, but i know it's full of bad ends. Through I'm not sure how bringing it up gives a deeper understanding of Keys popularity.

In the world of VNs you can find games better than Key in every aspect. But maybe thats part of what Key has... it could be a balance of strenghts and weaknesses.... or it could be a case of less being more. As in too much of a good thing.


Are you talking about fan translations or commercial translations? Viability of commercial translations are based as much on networking and willingness of Japanese companies as on viability of the product in a market.


Both actually, but that is an important point about a companies networking and willingness. Some great games may never see the light of day simply because they don't have interest or access to the english markets.

I'm not sure i feel much closer to understanding Keys mass appeal.

The quest continues

zalas
2008-08-08, 20:37
I'm not really looking for probabliities but first hand knowledge.
I don't think "probabilities" means what you think it means. If you want first hand accounts, then yes, of all the Japanese magazines I've read, advertisements for Key didn't stand out any more than other brands.

no, but i know it's full of bad ends. Through I'm not sure how bringing it up gives a deeper understanding of Keys popularity.
It's a comment on your hypothesis that game difficulty is a key factor to Key's popularity.

I'm not sure i feel much closer to understanding Keys mass appeal.
Maybe you're not asking the right question or maybe Key just doesn't have that mass appeal you think of. Is this mass appeal in the Japanese eroge market, mass appeal in the Japanese media-mix market, mass appeal in the overseas anime market, mass appeal amongst doujin circles, mass appeal amongst netizens, mass appeal amongst vocal fans, etc.?

Unregistered
2008-08-08, 22:51
I'm not sure i feel much closer to understanding Keys mass appeal.

Stepping away from Key for a second, I'd suggest that you think about why any major brand (particularly game properties) retains a strong following over time. What's obvious is that the content itself isn't the sole factor dictating mass popularity, so you've got to look beyond the stories, graphics, or design.

I don't understand entertainment markets well, but certain factors stand out.

a) for many successful formulas, the highly popular brands tend to be the first (or nearly the first) to become firmly established. Sometimes, they just happen to be at the right place at the right time.

b) things like conformity and community can drive a strong following for years. People have limited budgets, so they tend to buy what everyone else buys and discusses. Furthermore, there's the lure of community involvement/activity (Blizzard is a good example of this), which is also why consumers gravitate toward highly visible product.

A great product is crucial, but quality alone won't turn something into a market phenomenon. In terms of critical opinion, there are plenty of games that are on par with what Key releases.

Chronoscout
2008-08-09, 07:56
Probablities means what it does.

I don't think "probabilities" means what you think it means.

LOL nice princess bride reference... either way i guess you forgot your earlier post. so i'll try to clarify

they probably get the same treatment as any other popular company.

This is the phrase i was refering too when i spoke of probabilities. I hope it is completely clear to you now.

If you have any other difficulties with English let me know and i can try to further clarity or try dictionary.com.


It's a comment on your hypothesis that game difficulty is a key factor to Key's popularity.

That much was clear i guess i wasn't clear enough stating the obvious.

One games difficulty (Soul Link) or even many games difficulty is not relevant. This type of piecemeal approach to logic furthers nothing.

This thread is not find a strenght that Key has then find one or many games that surpass Key... The whole notion is ridiculus.

I think you might be confusing best and popular.


Maybe you're not asking the right question or maybe Key just doesn't have that mass appeal you think of. Is this mass appeal in the Japanese eroge market, mass appeal in the Japanese media-mix market, mass appeal in the overseas anime market, mass appeal amongst doujin circles, mass appeal amongst netizens, mass appeal amongst vocal fans, etc.?

I'm not asking the question.

Keys popularity with each group you mention could probably be it's own thread... However the thread doesn't make any distinction.

So Zalas, why do you think Key is more popular... what do you think it is?


a) for many successful formulas, the highly popular brands tend to be the first (or nearly the first) to become firmly established. Sometimes, they just happen to be at the right place at the right time.

b) things like conformity and community can drive a strong following for years. People have limited budgets, so they tend to buy what everyone else buys and discusses. Furthermore, there's the lure of community involvement/activity (Blizzard is a good example of this), which is also why consumers gravitate toward highly visible product.

A great product is crucial, but quality alone won't turn something into a market phenomenon. In terms of critical opinion, there are plenty of games that are on par with what Key releases.

All important factors.

I was thinking about it's market timing myself... some of Keys popularity is probably from the start. I wonder if much of it's current popularity comes from riding the crest of it's initial sucess and the fan base it started 10 years ago.

Some companies were still making 16 bit VNs back then... i'm curious what games were competing with Kanon and Air when they first came out in 1999/2000.

All the console versions of it's games certainly make Key more visible and accessable to gamers who might've never tried that type of game.

zalas
2008-08-09, 08:55
This is the phrase i was refering too when i spoke of probabilities. I hope it is completely clear to you now.
I hope it's completely clear to you that colloquial usage of "probably" serves the same function as "I believe that..." and "It seems that..." Would it have been clearer if I had included "From my observations, ..." in my sentence? There is no way to directly ascertain whether Key gets exactly the same treatment without reading all of the magazines, visiting all of the stores that run advertisements and interviewing either Key or all of the advertisement agencies.

If you have any other difficulties with English[,] let me know and i can try to further clarity or try dictionary.com.(emphases mine)
On the contrary, you might want to make sure that your grasp of English grammar and spelling is impeccable before looking down upon others.

One games difficulty (Soul Link) or even many games difficulty is not relevant. This type of piecemeal approach to logic furthers nothing.
If for Key's case, difficult -> popularity, then what about this other game? Is difficulty then merely a sufficient condition or is it irrelevant?

I'm not asking the question.
What in your opinion is/are the reason/reasons why Key is so popular

nachtrabe
2008-08-09, 09:09
Probablities means what it does.



LOL nice princess bride reference... either way i guess you forgot your earlier post. so i'll try to clarify



This is the phrase i was refering too when i spoke of probabilities. I hope it is completely clear to you now.

If you have any other difficulties with English let me know and i can try to further clarity or try dictionary.com.


You are so far behind that you think you're first.

Probabilities (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/probabilities) is the plural of probability (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/probability), not probably (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/probably).

Equivalent statements would be the original "they probably get the same treatment as any other popular company" and "in all probability they get the same treatment as any other popular company," but in neither case are we speaking of probabilities (plural) where we are most likely using the statistical definition (the others do not generally make sense in plural form).

Moving into the domain of colloquial english, what Zalas was indicating is that "this is the most likely outcome." That, most likely, Key receives the same treatment as other popular companies. He wasn't discussing the probabilities of various outcomes (note my use of the word) nor, breaking down his sentence, was the probability the subject under discussion.

By saying that you "aren't looking for probabilities but first-hand knowledge," you are asking an entirely separate question. We might quip in response to this that "the plural of anecdote is not data," because what you are basically saying is "I don't trust probability and statistics on the matter, has anyone seen this with their own eyes." This is functionally what you seem to be saying.

For what you meant to say, I think you are looking for that "I'm not looking into what is probably the case but what people have actually seen" (note I used the word probably, here, not "probabilities"). This would imply that "I'm not interested in guesswork, I want to know what is the truth." So if you say "is there a starbucks in this Safeway Grocery Store" and someone replies "probably, but I don't know for sure" you want to know if anyone has actually seen one.

That said, for something more nebulous like treatment (as opposed to something concrete like existence), someone with first-hand knowledge might still use the word "probably" to cushion their sentence or make it more vague. It would be equivalent to saying "I believe that..." So let's say that I live in Japan and haven't seen Key being treated any differently, but haven't done a comprehensive study. I might say "from what I've seen, they probably aren't treated any differently." This is based on first hand knowledge, but acknowledges that I can't know for certain what the internal contract and political deals look like between Key and the various parties in question.

Chronoscout
2008-08-09, 11:30
English 101

Probable has no plural nor does Probably.

prob·a·bil·i·ty (plural) prob·a·bil·i-ties

1. the quality or fact of being probable.

Probably is the adverb of probable.

Had i used "what is probably the case" instead of probabilities it would imply i agree with or give value to his assessment of what is likely to occur. Which i don't.

It's almost like you are trying to make it sound like i wanted agree but made an error. There is no error i really wanted to say that opinion has no value to me.

I hope this ends these semantics and the thread can get back on topic

nachtrabe
2008-08-09, 13:38
English 101

Probable has no plural nor does Probably.

prob·a·bil·i·ty (plural) prob·a·bil·i-ties

1. the quality or fact of being probable.

Probably is the adverb of probable.

Had i used "what is probably the case" instead of probabilities it would imply i agree with or give value to his assessment of what is likely to occur. Which i don't.

It's almost like you are trying to make it sound like i wanted agree but made an error. There is no error i really wanted to say that opinion has no value to me.

I hope this ends these semantics and the thread can get back on topic

Truly you have a dizzying intellect. They aren't synonyms, as you should be able to clearly see from the dictionary.com definition and you can't just use them interchangeably and one doesn't transfer cleanly into the other. Just to make this doubly clear, let's pull out another dictionary that has a reputation for being good:


probability |ˌpräbəˈbilətē|
noun ( pl. -ties)
the extent to which something is probable; the likelihood of something happening or being the case : the rain will make the probability of their arrival even greater.
• a probable event : for a time, revolution was a strong probability.
• the most probable thing : the probability is that it will be phased in over a number of years.
• Mathematics the extent to which an event is likely to occur, measured by the ratio of the favorable cases to the whole number of cases possible : the area under the curve represents probability | a probability of 0.5.
PHRASES
in all probability used to convey that something is very likely : he would in all probability make himself known.
ORIGIN late Middle English : from Latin probabilitas, from probabilis ‘provable, credible’ (see probable ).


From the New Oxford American Dictionary.

A "probable event" or "extent to which something is probable" are not the synonymous with the word "probable."

Or if you prefer, the Oxford American Writer's Thesauras:


probability
noun
1 the probability of winning likelihood, prospect, expectation, chance, chances, odds.
2 relegation is a distinct probability probable event, prospect, possibility, good/fair/reasonable bet.



"probable event" != "probable."

Let's look at the Oxford dictionary's statement on the word "probably":


almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell : she would probably never see him again | “Would you recognize them?” “Probably.”


This just doesn't transfer over to the meanings of "probability" all that well except for the set phrase "in all probability."

Or, if you want the final word in all such debates, let's pull out the Oxford English Dictionary (the dictionary that one can use to replace columns of collapsing buildings with):


Probably, adv
[< PROBABLE adj. + -LY suffix2. Compare Middle French, French probablement (c1370).]*
****1. In a way that commends itself to one's reason for acceptance or belief; in a way that seems likely to prove true; with likelihood (though not with certainty); plausibly. Now rare.
****2. As a sentence adverb qualifying a whole statement: almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell; in all probability; most likely. (Now the ordinary use.)



Probability, n
[< Middle French probabilité property or fact of being probable (c1370; French probabilité (also 1705 in mathematical use; compare sense 3)) and its etymon classical Latin probbilitt-, probbilits appearance of truth, likelihood < probbilis PROBABLE adj. + -ts (see -TY suffix1; compare -ITY suffix). Compare Spanish probabilidad (after 1350), Portuguese probabilidade (1614), Italian probabilità (a1540). Compare PROBABLENESS n.]* ****1. a. The property or fact of being probable, esp. of being uncertain but more likely than not; the extent to which something is likely to happen or be the case; the appearance of truth, or likelihood of being realized, which a statement or event bears in the light of present evidence.
**Earliest in by probability (see 1b).
****b. in (also by) all probability: probably; considering what is probable. Formerly also by (also in) probability.
****2. a. An instance of the property or fact of being probable; a probable event or circumstance; a thing judged likely to be true, to exist, or to happen.
****b. With the. The most probable thing; the most likely outcome or explanation.
****c. Chiefly N. Amer. In pl. Probable weather conditions; weather forecasts. Now rare or merged with general sense at 2a.
**Formerly applied esp. to forecasts provided by the Signal Office of the War Department in the U.S. (cf. Old Probabilities n. at OLD adj. Special uses 4).
**3. Math. As a measurable quantity: the extent to which a particular event is likely to occur, or a particular situation be the case, as measured by the relative frequency of occurrence of events of the same kind in the whole course of experience, and expressed by a number between 0 and 1.
**An event that cannot happen has probability 0; one that is certain to happen has probability 1. Probability is commonly estimated by the ratio of the number of successful cases to the total number of possible cases, derived mathematically using known properties of the distribution of events, or estimated logically by inferential or inductive reasoning (when mathematical concepts may be inapplicable or insufficient).


While it is clear these words are related, it should be equally clear that you cannot take the offhand statement "they are probably..." and then say "I'm not talking about probabilities."

Enerccio
2008-08-09, 13:48
guys.... this is off topic

OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol
2008-08-10, 14:39
I'm not sure i feel much closer to understanding Keys mass appeal.Perhaps because it does not exist? From what I read in the thread, and the point I tried to make along with others, Key's games are not "more popular than others" in the top-tier, so you wouldn't be able to single out any uniqueness in their games.

...at least, in the Japanese market. In the English fanside, kouryuu gave out good reasons, none having anything to do with Key's games' quality. All in all, I think Asceai said it best: "The thread was doomed from the start, because it was started based on a false preconception caused by misinterpreting the English-speaking side of the visual novel fandom as representative."

Unregistered
2008-08-14, 02:20
Key's graphics is rather harmonous and traditional type of graphics. Their graphics are quite good even though there are better but its still good. I don't really get why people are actually complaining about it.

Well it is a fact that Key products is considerably very popular. Aside from the fact that all of Key's popular titles have already been adapted into an anime series and the fact that people are translating their games is proof enough. Although whether or not it is the more popular than other companies is not for us to decide ^0^.